Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lost fictional characters


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. both. No arguments for deletion aside from the nominator. (non-admin closure) Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:05, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

Gui d'Excideuil
AfDs for this article: 
 * – (View AfD) (View log)
 * Also nominated: André de France
 * Also nominated: André de France

Delete - WP:N tells us that for a subject to be notable there must be reliable sources that are substantively about the subject and that sources which merely mention the subject do not establish notability. The primary source for these characters no longer exists and there do not appear to be secondary sources that are substantively about these characters. Note that a mere mention of the character in a source that is not about the character does not meet the notability guideline. Otto4711 (talk) 06:28, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep both. These articles are about two lost French medieval verse romances - not the eponymous characters as such. The deletion argument would apply to any of Category:Lost works - inevitably if the work is lost there can be little substantive discussion. Nonetheless these can certainly be notable, and are worth having stubs with all the available information. We can sure that if a text ever turns up there will rapidly be lots of sources. Both articles also appear in French WP. From this search there appears to be an article in the Hutchinson Encyclopedia. Johnbod (talk) 12:46, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep both — I have added references and improved categories. As mentioned above, these are on the French Wikipedia too. — Jonathan Bowen (talk) 14:19, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Both - although I don't speak French, and half of the Ghits I see are irrelevant, stuff like this is at least enough to prove existance, which I believe is relevant in this particular debate. I see a great potential for sources in both of these articles, it's just a matter of finding them.--Unionhawk Talk E-mail Review 15:58, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep though more exact sourcing and a fuller discussion would  help. The person writing the articles is a true expert, and I've reminded him to add to them--If he says they are mentioned in many other romances, I'd take him at his word.  This is a very different situation from the articles about characters in modern sci-fi.   I notice the nom forgot to notify the ed involved both when he prodded, and here. I notified him of the prod when I deprodded it, and I'm telling him its here now.    DGG ( talk ) 19:10, 10 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Re: Johnbod - WP:WAX; the existence of other articles on lost works has no bearing on this discussion. If other works are not notable than they should not have articles either. WP:CRYSTAL; If copies turn up in the future and sources are generated then the articles can actually be written. That both things have articles in the French WP is irrelevant to whether they have articles here as each language's WP has its own standards for inclusion. Re; Unionhawk - no one is questioning that these things at one time existed, but existence is not the standard for inclusion. Re: DGG - as I stated in the nomination and as is clearly spelled out at WP:N, simply being mentioned in a source is not the standard for inclusion. Substantive coverage in independent reliable sources is. Otto4711 (talk) 01:21, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * DGG, who was that Assyrian (or whatever) monarch who was only a name on a list, & who was kept at AfD (and the nomination brought up by several at the nom's RFA afterwards)? I think that is the precedent here. We all seem essentially agreed that the stubs contain pretty much all the information the world of scholarship has, it just there isn't much at all.  But they would love to have more, which makes the books notable (in fact candidates for FA status, now they have decided no topic is too small by its nature). Johnbod (talk) 04:59, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't think that the correct analogy. A great deal is known here that can be added--there are the allusions in all the various poems that mention him, all of which have been cited and discussed. As Andrew says below, this can certainly be expanded even if the text is never recovered. The reason this is notable, is that those citations show that this fictional character had a substantial influence on other works. Now, for Assyrian monarchs, and most names on lists of  figures from the ancient world, there is   the very real possible that additional archeological and literary  data may become available--there is a continuous stream of new discoveries and many undeciphered inscriptions.  The problem of what to do about names on a list is most acute with respect to   biblical figures where only the names are mentioned--the best set of examples i know are the genealogical lists in Ezra 2:2-61. And even here there is the possibility that archeological may reveal traces of these people: I believe that extra-biblical evidence has been recently found for a few  figures mentioned in even pre-exilic accounts.    DGG ( talk ) 05:19, 12 September 2009 (UTC)


 * Weak keep ... I started both articles (and their French equivalents, if I remember correctly) hoping that someone else (with better access to a library than I have) would add references to other medieval mentions of these two characters. There are quite a few. I admit the articles are pretty weak right now, since that hasn't happened ... If they are kept, I will expand them myself to demonstrate notability, but I can't do it for the next few days because I'm travelling. I suggest keeping if possible. Thanks And rew D alby  09:12, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * With a few minutes to spare, I can justify changing my view to strong keep -- on grounds hinted at by others, that it is really helpful to be able to find material like this in a reference source even if the amount of detail available is not much. If such characters are mentioned in more than one surviving text, as Gui d'Excideuil and Andre de France are, the best place for the information about them is an article on each character, saying just what is known and giving references. Thank goodness Wikipedia can find room for brief articles of this kind even if other encyclopedias can't. But I admit more is needed, in each case, and I'll do my best to supply it! And rew D alby  17:17, 15 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep all I had no difficulty adding a citation to the Andre article. Per WP:BEFORE and other policies, articles should not be nominated for deletion if this will disrupt good faith efforts to develop the articles.  AFD is not cleanup. Colonel Warden (talk) 12:17, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep both Gui d'Excideuil needs better sourcing, but as Unionhawk said above, you only have to look to find good sources for these two books; you don't have to delete articles simply because they require cleanup at the time. André de France has better sourcing, and should certainly not be deleted. Jprulestheworld01 (talk) 17:47, 11 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep and improve. I never knew such things existed.  Pretty cool with lots of EV. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 06:25, 12 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep both I've added sources to both which make it clear that they had an important influence on contemporary literature. --Zeborah (talk) 06:14, 13 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep. Countering systematic bias couldn't have a better poster child than this. I managed to find some French books referencing this poem, see and giving the author as Pons de Breuil, and some details of his life.
 * From a book on proverbs: "Le troubadour Pons de Breuil avait ecrit, a ce que nous apprend Nostradamus, un roman jadis tres goute, dont le titre etait las amor enrabyadas de andrieu de Fransa. Il se pourrait que le proverbe dut venu d'une allusion au heros de ce roman, mort d'amour pur une reine du pays, et frequemment cite comme le parfait modele des amants" which translates to "The troubadour Pons de Breuil had written, as we learned from Nostradamus, a novel once very fashionable, whose title was Las Amor enrabyadas de Andrieu de Fransa. It is possible that the proverb comes from an allusion to the hero of this novel, death of pure love of a queen [?], and frequently cited as the perfect model of lovers" or something along those lines, referring to the proverb "mort d'amour et d'une fluxion de poitrine" or "death of love and chest inflammation"??? Hmm.
 * "Pons de Breuil, gentilhomme provencal du pays des montagnes selon les uns, & italien selon les autres, joignica la poeme & a la musique le talent de jouer tres biens de toutes fortes d'instruments. Il n'etoit pas ne riche, & cependant il portoit la properte dans ses habits jusqu'a la magnificence, tant il est vrais qu'avec de l'esprit & de la bonne mine on supplee a tout. Il aima tendrement Elys de Merrillon femmes d'Ozil de Mercuit, & lui sut attache jusqu'a sa mort. Qu'il ait fait pour elle plusieurs chansons, on ne peut geure en douter. Il etoit poete et amoureux. Ayant perdu sa maitresse, il fit le voiage d'outremer avec le comte de Provence son seigneur, & mourut en Syrie; il avoit fait un tres beauchant funebre pour Elys. Il adressait ses ouvrages a Beatrix au Provences, & a Marie reine de l'Angleterre & de France. On a encore de lui un poeme de las amours enrabyadas de Andrieu de Fransa, qui mourut par trop aimer. Il y avoit un roman de cet Andre de France, qui s'est perdu." possibly translating to "Pons de Breuil, a gentleman of the Provencal hill country according to some, and Italian according to others, joined the poem to music & was talented, playing very well all kinds of instruments. He was not born rich, and yet his bearing was magnificent, as wit and good looks make up for everything. He dearly loved Elys of Merrillon, wife of Ozil of Mercuit, and maintained this attachment until his death. He wrote many songs for her, one can have little doubt. He was a poet and lover. Having lost his mistress, he took a voyage overseas with the Count of Provence, his lord, and died in Syria. He had made a very fine funereal song for Elys. He dedicated his works to Beatrix of Provence & Mary, Queen of England & France. He then wrote a poem, las amours enrabyadas de Andrieu de Fransa, who died through love. There was a novel about Andre de France, but this has been lost". Someone with better French than I needs to go over this.  Fences  &amp;  Windows  01:17, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep both: Historically significant romances. Joe Chill (talk) 01:36, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep - I love the fact that this sort of article exists in the Wikipedia as a reference, even if it consists of little more than a definition. Strong KEEP.  --AStanhope (talk) 03:11, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * Kepp both per Joe Chill and DGG --Mokhov (talk) 04:10, 14 September 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.