Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Love Pump


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Per WP:SNOW. (non-admin closure) Tim Song (talk) 22:00, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

Love Pump

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

I have removed the speedy tag from this article; this band was active from 1985–1992, so sources may be more difficult to locate than bands that exist today. Possible reasons for deletion could be Notability (music) and Verifiability. Cunard (talk) 23:18, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.  —Cunard (talk) 23:27, 11 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete does not pass music notability tests. JBsupreme (talk) 05:08, 12 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment I looked in Ian McFarlane's Encyclopedia of Australian Rock and Pop which covers up to 1997. Love Pump did not have their own entry. National Library of Australia holdings suggest there might be something. (clearly not an a7, good move). I will inform a good editor with a good knowledge of the WA music industry. Duffbeerforme (talk) 17:44, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment I am the original writer of the article - and used to play in the band. I thought it would be appropriate for wikipedia to have an entry precisely because of the lack of a historiography of Western Australian popular music during this period, which was highly active culturally. As I noted in the article contemporary histories of Australian rock and pop almost entirely omit the Western Australian music scene, due to undue emphasis on the Eastern States of Australia - generally written by writers from those states who had little knowledge of what was going on in WA. Naturally, this all changed with the advent of the internet, when documentation and communication was easily established. The 1980's were prior to this, so much of the source material is not online. I'm attempting to find as many references as I can in order to support the validity and notability of this article, as it was a seminal period in Western Australian popular music and the bands mentioned were key players in this historical moment. This is a fact confirmed by eg. the development of the oral history programs held by the National Library of Australia. (see references on article) Visualising (talk) 21:38, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment Drawing a comparison to the article for a contemporary band of Love Pump, the Kryptonics (see: Kryptonics) we seem to have established more sources in order to establish eligibility. Further biographical material for notability will be incorporated. Visualising (talk) 04:16, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Could you provide links to the nontrivial, independent, reliable sources that establish notability? If no sources can be found, this article will be deleted. Wikipedia requires coverage in multiple reliable sources so that the information in the article can be verified by sources that are independent of the subject. Your argument about Kryptonics is not applicable; see Arguments to avoid in deletion discussions Cunard (talk) 04:28, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Problem: much of the nontrivial independent support material is not online (considering the age of this material), but I will try my best to locate some - I assume library catalogue material will be sufficient, but obviously need to absorb the wikipedia guidelines first and have a bit of time to track the material down. Bit of a noob here, trying to write a credible article as opposed to a 'vanity' one, I assure you. Fair enough about the Kryptonics article and I take your point - however, this would seem to problematise the existence of such an article that cites no references whatsoever.
 * I note the existence of List_of_musical_acts_from_Western_Australia that attempts an exhaustive historiography, often linking to descriptions of bands that might fail to meet wikipedia criteria as it is being argued for here. It may be worth contacting the editor/user David Gerard http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:David_Gerard who compiled the Perth Bands family tree (his magazine 'Party Fears' is referenced in the Love Pump article.) Naturally, I understand and respect wikipedia editorial probity in this.Visualising (talk) 06:17, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * If you can find print sources that are offline, please scan the newspaper articles to your computer, and then upload them to Flickr or any other photo-sharing site. Cunard (talk) 06:25, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * OK, will do over the weekend. Visualising (talk) 07:30, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * As requested I have uploaded a selection of scanned articles (reviews, adverts, notices, images) from a variety of independent sources - they are at: http://www.flickr.com/photos/pmcom/sets/72157622582863558/detail/ The sources are mainly music journalists at 'The West Australian' newspaper ( The_West_Australian ), the 'Daily News' (now defunct: Daily_News_(Perth,_Western_Australia) ) and X-press or Xpress Magazine (http://www.xpressmag.com.au/ ). Note that none of these have publicly available digital archives for the period we are documenting. There are also articles from Fanzines published at the time - Party Fears - see: http://davidgerard.co.uk/pf/ User:David_Gerard and 'Vortex'. Disclaimer - I was the author of the Vortex magazine article. Many of these sources are verifiable via library search at the State Library of Western Australia - but only via librarian as they require a subscription or access to microfiche (I am not in Western Australia). Is this sufficient for verifiability? I assume we go some way towards avoiding the Notability_in_Wikipedia dilemma. I would hope from this that we could document other bands that were active at this time in order to flesh-out the historiography of Western Australian independent music that is beginning in Wikipedia.  Visualising (talk) 10:36, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * As an aside, they are via librarian but literally anyone off the street can come in and request an item "off stack" (I do it all the time). If it's rare material they send you up to the researcher's room and you need a (free to apply for) researcher's ticket, otherwise you can just browse it in the main area once it arrives. I do that all the time :) The West Australian is easier as it doesn't need requesting - you just need to walk into the microfilm room, select the microfilm you want then put it in the reader. The West is available in several other state and university libraries as well, I spotted it in SLV when I was there in 2007. Orderinchaos 16:02, 14 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletion discussions.  —Grahame (talk) 06:42, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep coverage provided by Visualising. Duffbeerforme (talk) 11:09, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep per sources provided, notably The West Australian. From those articles, they were clearly a notable band prior to the internet generation, and have just struggled to transcend onto the web. k.i.a.c  ( talktome  -  contribs ) 13:59, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep appears notable (and I had heard of the band long prior to this debate, it used to get a bit of coverage in XPress music mag - I recall it as I was a rather early teen at the time and thought the name funny.) Orderinchaos 15:57, 14 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment This opens up the serious possibility of addressing - in a structured way - the extensive Hilton archives - an assiduous audiovisual and reference collection - which cover the late 1970s to 1990s indie scene in Perth - with much rare material that is unavailable elsewhere. Interesting. Visualising (talk) 16:22, 14 October 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep originally I thought that it was problematic establishing the notability of the band the existed prior to the internet being established as most of the references to the band are not likely to be web-based (which seems to be the criteria that a lot of editors use - because of the ease of verifying the reference). I have previously discussed the issue with David Gerard who is now based in the UK, and whilst he agrees that at the time the references establishing notability of early Western Australian bands existed, a lot of the time these references have not necessarily been retained - although some do exist in library archives as is the case with Love Pump. One day when I get the time I intend to go through the Battye Library and see if I can't document the actual references contained there to support a number of early bands. Anyway to  cut this ramble short - I support the retention of the article for the reasons establsihed above. Dan arndt (talk) 03:08, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep The sources that posted on Flickr establish that this band passes the notability guidelines. My deletion nomination is no longer applicable. Cunard (talk) 07:09, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment By whom, when and how is the 'deletion' nomination deleted? I assume there is a process for this higher up the editorial chain? I'll be following Cunard's advice re citation etc. over the next few days. Visualising (talk) 04:53, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * This AfD debate will be closed at around 23:27, 18 October 2009, which is seven days after the article was nominated for deletion. An uninvolved administrator will close it, or even a non-admin could close this since Love Pump will most certaintly be kept. Best, Cunard (talk) 06:12, 17 October 2009 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.