Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ludwig Bürgel


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  Sandstein  13:04, 26 July 2020 (UTC)

Ludwig Bürgel

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GNG fail ThatMontrealIP (talk) 17:01, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Artists-related deletion discussions. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 17:01, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Austria-related deletion discussions. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 17:01, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the Article Rescue Squadron's list of content for rescue consideration. --Greg Henderson (talk) 23:18, 20 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete other than a possible gallery or museum named after him in Seekirchen am Wallersee, I could find no significant coverage in reliable sources. Fails WP:GNG. Curiocurio (talk) 17:42, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * that was an interesting find. Looking at it in Google maps reveals a gallery attached to the back of a house.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 17:46, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Good detective work! Curiocurio (talk) 17:50, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete - After a fairly exhaustive online search I only found listings of prints for sale on eBay, Etsy or auction sites, which is never a good sign. It seems that he was a commercial artist or production painter who cranked out a lot of prints and some paintings, but that his work was not received by the museum world. It is interesting that he does not have an article in De.wikipedia, if he were notable, one would think we would find him there. Netherzone (talk) 18:24, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Keep - Ludwig Bürgel was considered representative of naturalism and is mentioned in several International directories of arts. Many of his works are owned by art museums. The article could benefit anyone wanting to know more about a Austrian copper engraver and landscape artist. --Greg Henderson (talk) 19:50, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Questions: Do you happen to have page numbers in those directories? When I search the one in the references, it was unverifiable. Also the "museum" in Seekirchen is actually his house with an attached studio room that is being called a museum. Museums have independent experts in the form of curators who make art historical choices on the art that is held in their collection. It seems that is not the case here, that perhaps his studio was "given" to the town of Seekirchen and it was turned into a tourist site where visitors can purchase his prints. If you can find verifiable, independent sources WP:V linked to actual museum collections, please place them in the article. Netherzone (talk) 19:58, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Many of his works are owned by art museums. Please provide sources.ThatMontrealIP (talk) 20:02, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * ThatMontrealIP, spent some time today updating the article with some new citations and information about him: --Greg Henderson (talk) 22:54, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Yesd I see you have done some editing there, adding word like "prominent" and claims of musuem collections... but no sources for museum collections. Do you have a COI on this article, since you refuse to give us a list of the articles you have a conflict with? Only asking because we just deleted articles on your mom and dad, so maybe this is another distant family member?ThatMontrealIP (talk) 23:25, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , I doubt this is a family member, but I did notice from the images that the article creator owns two pieces of his art work. This, to my mind, is another form of COI since there may be a financial stake in the "collectibility" or "market value" of the work. The attribution of the images has been changed, (they were originally credited to the uploader as "own work" after I nominated the images for deletion) but the complexity remains. Netherzone (talk) 23:36, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I just removed several of the sources added today. One was a directory listing for the gallery, not the artist, and another was wiki.seekirchen.com. A wiki is not a reliable source, per our standards. There is no evidence that he is in any museum collections, just one six sentence mention of that in one Sketchy source in German:" He is in many museum collections". ThatMontrealIP (talk) 23:40, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

The entry for the International Directory of Arts is misleading, he is NOT written about in pages 1-55. There is a one-line entry for his studio gallery, which is simply a trivial listing. Netherzone (talk) 13:42, 19 July 2020 (UTC) Additional comment: I just went to the IDA's website, and it is essentially a phone/address book. It seems that anyone can submit a listing (I'm assuming for a price) as I could not find any information for vetting listings, but their parent org seems to be "pay to publish." We should not be adding this sorts of "yellow pages" as actual references, this one has no merit. If I wanted to list The Netherzone Museum, I probably could. Netherzone (talk) 14:22, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Fun fact: "His work is represented in all major Museums in Austria." per That should be easy; just list two that have his work in their collections and he meets WP:NARTIST 4d. Vexations (talk) 16:40, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I checked out the International Directory of Arts as well. Within the first ten listings are:
 * A-1 Antiques and Auction House
 * A-1 Furniture
 * A-1 Furniture Refinishing
 * A-1 Jewelry and Coin
 * I would agree this is a business directory and not a good source, other than perhaps for confirming an address. ThatMontrealIP (talk) 21:28, 20 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment I have added a few references. Still deciding his notability. I always ask, is it better to keep this in Wikipedia and WP:IAR, or is the encyclopedia better without this. I cannot fight WP:N guideline so I will continue to toil. Lightburst (talk) 01:01, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I was looking for a website that list all art exhibits around the world to see if his stuff was anywhere. https://museu.ms/museum/details/13852/galerie-ludwig-burgel Is there somewhere else that is used to search? Not sure how updated that place is.  There is an address for Galerie Ludwig Bürgel in Austria.  If someone can speak their language and search for reliable sources in it, should get better results.  Or even contact people there at the gallery dedicated to the guy, and ask what other places carry his work.  Is this a notable gallery or just some small local thing?   D r e a m Focus  10:25, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , as noted above, some editors (including myself) have researched this, and it is a room built onto the back of his house, the artist's former studio where people can buy his prints. In other words, it is a vanity "gallery" that was run by his widow after his death. Anyone can hang a shingle outside their house and claim it's Gallerie Netherzone or whatever. This is certainly not the same as having works in the permanent collections of notable museums, which he does not, or having significant in-depth coverage which he does not. Simply put, artists make art and show their work, that is just what they do; are we going to have articles on millions of artists in the encyclopedia just because they do what they do and hang a sign on their house? I've searched numerous online museum collections in Austria looking of evidence but came up cold. If he were notable he'd be in art history books. It seems that he was the town's local artist and probably a likeable guy, but that does not make him a notable artist. Netherzone (talk) 11:10, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Netherzone, I think you are being too firm on what you believe are the "rules". Remember, WP:5P5 from the 5 pillars. I have been in touch with the gallery and they said: "Hello Mr. Henderson, I am currently abroad, but will get in touch with you soon. There are still a few mistakes in the wiki article, which I will send to you from home. LG, Günter Schäfer." So, all I ask is for more time and for you to revisit some of the "Keep" remarks. I think it is important to recognize art and this man who was an recognized Austrian landscape artist that dedicated his life to it, had a road named after him, and has a gallery in Austria, where they still sell his art. --Greg Henderson (talk) 16:23, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I kindly suggest you re-read WP:5P1 and WP:5P2. Netherzone (talk) 17:34, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Greghenderson2006, please refrain from exaggerations and conflations. The "Street named after him" is a small dead-end frontage path next to the train yard, that looks (on Google Maps and Streetview) as not being open to cars. The sources are trivial, and small-town local. Netherzone (talk) I got curious about Franz Alt (painter), and found that his works are included in the collection of the Metropolitan Museum of Art, the Cooper Hewitt Museum (the Smithsonian's design museum), the Albertina Museum, the Museum of Fine Arts, Budapest and other international collections. Ludwig Burgel certainly does not have the notability that Alt has no matter how much you enjoy the prints of his that you own in your private collection. Why compare the two without doing the necessary research? It would be really great if instead of accusing long-standing editors (myself included) of bad faith, you might want to try understanding that we have some knowledge in the areas we edit. The sentiment behind our comments in this debate (and others) are to improve the encyclopedia and defend its integrity. And regarding the "street name", it is a one-block long dead-end footpath next to the train tracks, it's not a "Street". Austria has quite a checkered, problematic history of "honorary street names"; if you don't believe me, just google it. Netherzone (talk) 17:02, 25 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete the article is fine example that some competence is required to edit Wikipedia. For example: Bürgel used a technique for producing prints called Intaglio in German: Kupfertiefdruck. The author mistakenly assumes this means "Art on copper plate". As for how notable Bürgel is: "The artist's work has been offered at auction multiple times, with realized prices ranging from $10 USD to $183 USD, depending on the size and medium of the artwork. Since 2012 the record price for this artist at auction is $183 USD for Blumenstrauß in einer runden Vase" (via Mutualart). He's a fine example of "Volksnahe Kunst" though; his son calls him "einer der letzten Repräsentanten der konservativen Kunst" ("one of the last representatives of conservative art") or as I'd put it: he made work the Nazi's really liked, it was cheap, and mass produced. Vexations (talk) 18:30, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Delete. Fails WP:NPOL as the mayor of a town of 1,500 people. Fails WP:NARTIST as one whose works are not shown in any major museums or collections. This appears to have been a run of the mill commercial artist. I note that many thousands of 20th Century art posters are valued in the $150 range. Talent does not create notability. Nor were his activities as a soldier notable. Bearian (talk) 03:12, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Passes WP:BASIC Bürgel has been the subject of publication in reliable sources, e.g. There is a chronicle of Seekirchen: Elisabeth and Heinz Dopsch "1300 years Seekirchen, history and culture of a Salzburg market town". In this is an article about Ludwig Bürgel: "The Painter Ludwig Bürgel" from page 735: 1,300 years Seekirchen. There are also primary sources, examples of his paintings, and even a street named after him. --Greg Henderson (talk) 14:07, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , Dopsch is a self-published source: "herausgegeben von Elisabeth und Heinz Dopsch" in English: "published by Elisabeth und Heinz Dopsch". Primary sources do not establish notability. That examples of his paintings exist is not surprising. What IS surprising is that the value of his work is so low. $183 is the highest price his work has recently sold for. It's almost–literally–worthless.
 * I believe it is a WP:RS. Worldcat shows the publication as "Seekirchen: market town of Seekirchen am Wallersee, ©1996." It is available in the Library of Congress. --Greg Henderson (talk) 15:24, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , you have access to a copy, right? (If you didn't, then how could you cite it?) You can read on the cover: "Elizabeth und Heinz Dopsch (Hg.)" Hg. is short for Herausgeber which is German for Publisher. Vexations (talk) 15:47, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * It can also mean Hg stands for: Editor, A person or group of people who prepares literary, journalistic or scientific texts or works by authors and artists for publication (edition). The above citation is from www.worldcat.org.--Greg Henderson (talk) 16:07, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * , alright, let's say the source is credible. (Dopsch is a historian) The book is a collection of essays ("Aufsatzsammlung") who wrote the essay on Bürgel? (I don't have a copy, but it appears you do). Vexations (talk) 16:35, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Vexations, The essay was written by Professor Gottfried Tichy from the University of Salzburg. The article is called: "The Painter Ludwig Bürgel" from page 735. I don't have a copy but I am in touch with a representative from the Bürgel gallery. --Greg Henderson (talk) 16:42, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * The man is a retired paleontologist and co-wrote and illustrated a children's book about a piglet that discovers art (Schweinchen Schnüfferl entdeckt die Welt der Kunst). Would we cite an art historian in an article about physics or math? A musicologist on paleontology? A children's book author on ... anything? But this is about art, where everybody and their dog fancies themselves an expert, amateurs are credible sources and this passes for a museum. Sigh...  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vexations (talk • contribs) 18:12, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Vexations As a reminder of the great artist, the municipality of Seekirchen named the path, Ludwig Bürgel Way, that connects the main street (at the level of the Hirschenwirt underpass) with the train station (along the Western Railway) and is heavily frequented by railway users. Based on WP:HEY, can we say this article has significantly improved?--Greg Henderson (talk) 22:23, 23 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Certainly not. This article isn't remotely close to GA. You have used a citation that, by your own admission above, you do not have access to. The article makes a weird contradictory claim (self-taught, but studied at the academy). There is no evidence whatsoever that his work is held in notable collections, even though that claim has been made (and should be easily conformed if true), it is very poorly written ("His etchings depicted naturalistic landscapes." It uses a completely inappropriate connected source like Bürgel's son Peter. And frankly, he is not a "great artist": His work sells for almost nothing. The Ludwig-Bürgel-Weg is a red herring. (we're talking about this). That you would suggest that the frequency of use of a path establishes notability for the eponym is has convinced me that you have really lost all perspective and lack the competence and common sense required to edit Wikipedia. Vexations (talk) 15:22, 24 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Vexations, I think you are being a little harsh. Currently, out of the 6,127,736 articles on Wikipedia, 32,110 are categorized as good articles (about 1 in 191). So, obviously, your bar is very high. I understand the article needs work and additional citations. I am working with contacts at the Bürgel gallery to come up with a list of museums or collections that have his work and getting more secondary sources. I think your last sentence is untrue. Just because I believe a street named after him may mean something, should not make you think I lack competence. Think about what you are saying to an editor who enjoys Wikipedia. What happened to WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF? The article at least attempts to bring light in an encyclopedia, about a somewhat unknown Austrian painter that is noted in Austria for his landscapes. Even after his death some 40 years ago, his art is still selling. The low price could be because they are prints (etchings). There are so many other articles worth deleting, e.g. Franz Alt (painter). All I ask is to give more time to improve the article and make it worth keeping. Thanks for letting me share my viewpoint. --Greg Henderson (talk) 16:04, 24 July 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.