Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lustboy


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Seraphimblade Talk to me 03:35, 15 July 2016 (UTC)

Lustboy

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

An eSports player with no notable coverage beyond niche sites and sub-sections dedicated to the field. He did win a competition as a "support player", but this win is a case of WP:BLP1E and I am not convinced that being part of an eSports team that wins a competition justifies an individual article. Additionally, all of the references are to The Daily Dot, which is a contentious source and its reliability is disputed. Most of the content online is eSports related cruft from unreliable sources. KaisaL (talk) 14:04, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment A discussion on the notability of eSports subjects is ongoing at Village pump (policy), and this was an article raised as an example of the inherent question marks over the content. KaisaL (talk) 14:05, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep I don't know about a lot of the other e-sports figured nomd today, but this one should meet GNG easily. He played for two years on one of the top North American League of Legends teams, and played for two other top Korean teams. There's plenty of coverage out there, a lot of it may be "niche" but it's a niche subject. Incidentally, he was recently covered by ESPN for his role as a coach of Longzhu. Timothy Joseph Wood  19:16, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Does just playing for "top teams" assert notability, though? Apologies if this could sound a little bit WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS, but eSports is not soccer or baseball, so I'm not sure simply being part of a team counts. We have no established precedent either way, and I'm inclined to say that you need more than being in a team and getting coverage on eSports websites, at least until this sport grows and gets more coverage beyond them. That ESPN section is a bit better, but it's very brief mentions and quotations, not exactly a full feature dedicated to him. KaisaL (talk) 19:25, 4 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Umm...yeah...I would say playing in the World Championship (more than once) goes a long way toward establishing notability. This is one of the, if not the most played competitive game in the world. The official World Championship admits 16 teams, and so is arguably exactly twice as exclusive as the FIFA World Cup. It also became the largest prize pool and most watched esports event in Season Two, and it's only grown since.
 * As I've alluded to elsewhere, I'm not sure you yet have the requisite familiarity with the topic. "Top teams" is not a subjective descriptor that needs scare quotes like "hot new artist". At least in this case, it's 100% as objective as which teams make it to the World Cup. Probably more so as TSM has not only been to Worlds, but has been to it every year since its inception.
 * Similarly, "support" does not need scare quotes either. It is one of five positions on a five man team and is exactly analogous to Small forward or Power forward in basketball.
 * I'm not trying to make a personal attack, and I'm sorry if it comes off that way, but if you don't know what a Small forward or Point guard is in basketball, a Fullback or Linebacker is in American Football, or a Support or ADC is in League of Legends, then you probably have some reading to do before you're ready to dive into substantial AfD noms or suggest major policy creation. Timothy Joseph Wood  14:05, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Please, comment on content, not editors. The nominator's personal knowledge on the subject is irrelevant - you do not need to be an esports enthusiast to recognize whether or not a subject has been covered in significant detail by reliable, third party sources. Please don't move the discussion into this "I'm more of an expert than you on this so listen to me" type of direction. Providing sources (or noting a lack-thereof) will get you much farther in these discussions. Sergecross73   msg me  14:10, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I have hesitated thus far to reference WP:CIR, because it is often used pejoratively, but I use it in this sense to mean the good spirit of the essay, someone who is 100% acting in good faith but who is outside their subject area. There are currently 24 sources for the article. I have worked most of the day to improve them. Timothy Joseph Wood  03:22, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, you've been right to be hesitant, as its wildly inappropriate to cite CIR in this discussion. That's usually used in the context of referring to someone who doesn't seem to have the capacity to understand how to write an encyclopedia. You're dealing with an Administrator with 10 years experience who made a policy-based nomination you don't agree with. Not even close to CIR. Sergecross73   msg me  12:29, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I think we will have to, per your comment on my talk page too, agree to disagree on this Timothy. Debates on AFD should not be exclusive to card-carrying experts, just like editing a topic is not exclusive to experts, particularly as there can be a degree of subject bias if they are. You have alluded to the FIFA World Cup, for example, and stated that the competition Lustboy competes in is twice as exclusive and the most-watched eSports event; This misses the fact that world eSports competitions are nowhere near as important or widely covered as the World Cup in football. Perspectives from both experts and outsiders are very much welcome at AFD because it's about establishing a consensus on notability per the presence, reliability and significance of sources on a general encyclopedia. KaisaL (talk) 16:03, 5 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete: Not one scrap of proof has been proffered suggesting that the subject can meet the GNG. I did read the ESPN source Timothyjosephwood posted above, and I can't imagine how he thinks that supports notability.  First off, the only mention of the subject is in quotes from him, which explicitly can't be used to support the notability of him.  Secondly, that's routine, casual coverage of the sort explicitly debarred by WP:ROUTINE.  Would anyone like to proffer multiple reliable, independent sources that provide "significant coverage" to the subject?   Ravenswing   13:46, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - The sources present do not indicate meeting the WP:GNG through significant coverage through reliable sources. Emphasis on the "significant coverage" part - the ESPN source is a very short article that contains even less information about the subject himself. Sergecross73   msg me  14:06, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
 * May I suggest going to Google, typing "Lustboy" and hitting go? Maybe clicking the News search link automatically generated at the top of the page? Maybe instead someone here could go read WP:BEFORE.  Timothy Joseph Wood  14:12, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Er..."Lustboy" isn't exactly the type of thing I like typing into search engines. BEFORE is something you'd want to direct towards a nominator, not really anyone else. Regarding my stance, I'd reconsider if better sources are provided. Sergecross73   msg me  14:19, 5 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Ahem. Perhaps you could be troubled to do the work yourself.  You're asserting that just because who he is, Lustboy must be notable by definition.  The burden is yours to prove it.  I suggest that it is more productive for you to do so than to insinuate that any editors who disagree with you are lazy and/or clueless for not doing the work you are declining to do yourself.   Ravenswing   16:57, 5 July 2016 (UTC)

Well there goes my evening. (edit conflict) I've rewritten basically the entire article. I started to give up when I got to the tourney history and just shot-gun-blasted as placeholders for where I need to find sources for results.
 * Keep, there are enough sources for this topic, and current consensus is that these particular sources are reliable. We're also not even talking about Korean language sources.--Prisencolin (talk) 00:01, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

The notability question for me, as someone who is familiar, boils down to the fact that he played for Team SoloMid. They're not just almost certainly the top North American team, (Counter Logic Gaming is the only close competition), but they are historically the top team, and are the only ones to play in Worlds every year since its inception. Compare articles for Dyrus or WildTurtle, who were contemporaries of Lustboy's. If WP:NFOOTY can be used an an analogy, then playing for TSM is basically auto-notability in LoL esports. He's also Korean, started out in the Korean scene, came the the US, and then returned. It's a bigger more competitive deal in Korea. (There is no discussion like this going on at the Korean WP.)

A lot of the sources may be "niche", or however you want to classify them. But there's plenty of them, and when it all boils down, even niche sources don't give a crap about you unless you're a global player. I actually do follow a few up-and-comers like Huzzy, but you can't find anything like this on him, because he isn't a world-stage player. Lustboy is.

Finally, to whomever didn't want to google Lustboy...no, you don't get porn. Yes, you get almost all esports content and apparently one guy in the UK who went to jail over kids. Yes, it's almost certainly a Korean-English translation issue. Timothy Joseph Wood 00:18, 6 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment I've checked out the rewritten article and my opinion personally hasn't changed. I don't believe there's such a thing as "auto-notability" for eSports by means of playing for a team, because the sport isn't major enough at this time, making WP:NFOOTY a bad analogy in my view. All of my other views have been detailed previously, and in spite of the additional sources those still stand. A couple of source comments: This Gamespot one gives him a passing mention in a list in an article about somebody else, this mostly consists of an aggregation of Reddit quotes, this ESPN one does not load at all and this one gives him the most trivial of mentions in an article about the team. So while they may not be unreliable sources per se, the coverage isn't substantial or often even primarily about Lustboy. And also, many of the sources in general do more to demonstrate the relevance of the teams, as the coverage of him personally is trivial. I know you won't agree with me but that's very much a part of AFD debates. KaisaL (talk) 00:52, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Doesn't load at all? Have you tried turning it off and back on again? Works fine for me. Timothy Joseph Wood  10:10, 6 July 2016 (UTC)


 * You keep addressing the reliability and niche status of sources, but the recurring issue seems to be that, regardless of the status, they aren't discussing the subject in significant detail. Sergecross73   msg me  03:04, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Two things were addressed in the original nom: That they only have won one competition, and that all of the references are to a single source. Both of these have been addressed. There are two dozen sources generally, and even with the sources needed for competition wins, there are a half dozen at least already provided to alleviate this concern. Timothy Joseph Wood  03:26, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Please list the sources here that are RS's and cover the subject in significant detail. It seems every time you allude to "all these sources" I spot check some and see they are sources that mention the name in passing and nothing else. I'd like to see what you think significant coverage is. Sergecross73   msg me  03:31, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * What about the currently nine sources that mention him by name in the title? Timothy Joseph Wood  03:34, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I'd assume you'd want to direct me to the good ones, since every time I spot check on my own, I find that they're lacking in some capacity. Your Yahoo News source, for example. It mentions him by name, but 95% of the article is about the team owner, Andrew Dinh, talking about himself and the team - talking about announcing things too early, being careful on social media, etc. Very little of it is actually about "Lustboy" himself. Sergecross73   msg me  03:53, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

I'm quite close to done with the whole thing emotionally. I've already gotten frustrated a couple of times and I don't edit WP to feel frustrated.

Having said that, this is what the current sources establish:
 * Played as a starter for multiple professional teams who, at the time, were ranked as the top or one of the top teams in their region
 * Received media coverage for both their transfer to and retirement from the top North American Team
 * Competed in and won the top Korean competition as a starting member of a professional team
 * Competed in and won the top North American competition as a starting member of a professional team
 * Competed in and was semi and quarter finalist the top global competition for his field as a starting member of a professional team
 * Competed in multiple additional regional and international competitions as a starting member of a professional team
 * Was individually ranked twelfth in the world based on performance in the 2014 World championship
 * Was individually ranked fourth and fifth in North America based on performance in two metrics at the region's top competition

Anything remotely resembling the notability criteria for sports is a slam dunk. The person's claim to notoriety is as a competitive member of this club, and these are the top achievements that a person in this field can accomplish. If these are insufficient to establish notability then the individual is categorically disqualified, because the coverage of the person concerns his achievements in his field, because that is why he is notable.

If this is the case then I'm not going spend any more time arguing over or trying improve this or the other nominated articles. The most relevant sources are the ones that establish these metrics because these performances are the reason the person is even considered for an article.

If these suffice then I will continue improving this and the other articles. Timothy Joseph Wood 13:06, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * As has arisen across a number of these discussions, there's no "WP:NESPORTS" or "WP:NGAMER", guidelines like there are things like WP:NSONG or WP:NFILM, so they only way to prove notability is going to be to provide a bunch of sources that are considered reliable and significant coverage. I've been trying to assume good faith here, but am I to interpret your continued resistance to provides such sources here at the AFD page as a sign that said sources don't exist? It seems like you've attempted everything except for the typical approach of just listing off sources here at AFD. Sergecross73   msg me  13:29, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * As I have said a number of times, Timothy, there is no consensus that just competing - or indeed winning - professional eSports competitions as part of a team is a reason for that individual to be have their own encyclopedia article. You raised WP:NFOOTY previously, and compared an eSports competition to the FIFA World Cup; This to me completely misses the point that eSports is still a growing, niche interest. So just being a competitor for me isn't enough, and is why I have argued to delete here. Your list only strengthens my views because it feels like you're completely clutching at straws with a list of statistics that only serve to suggest he may have competed for notable eSports teams. None of this is reliable, significant coverage of him personally. I think we're going around in circles on that issue though because clearly you're debating this as if there's a clear precedent to give eSports professional articles on competition achievements alone. I could understand that argument maybe for an individual competition, but this is team competition, and team competitions without significant coverage than even puts them in the same postcode (zip code) as established team sports like football, baseball and hockey. KaisaL (talk) 13:47, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Sources to establish the above are in the article. The list includes many of the most significant achievements at all possible in the field.
 * I actually feel like I'm pretty well getting the point, and why this has been so frustrating. If the person's notability is tied to these achievements, and the majority of coverage is therefore about these achievements, and yet the sources and the coverage are both disqualified because they are esports, then the person is categorically disqualified from notability, and no further argument is possible. If that is the standard then the conversation is over, and probably very nearly 100% of the existing articles on esports participants should be nominated for deletion. Timothy Joseph Wood  14:11, 6 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Korea-related deletion discussions. Random86 (talk) 23:09, 6 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep per Timothyjosephwood's fine addition of sourcing to the article - although I would point out that the original stub was quite a young article and it too had sources, if far fewer. Yes, the sourcing is to largely to websites / e-zines that cover eSports, but the same is true of vanilla sports players being largely covered only in sports sources.  WP:GNG is basically "do 3rd party reliable sources exist", and yes, they do.  If expanded to some 1st-party sources, I imagine the sourcing well gets even deeper.
 * As a side note, it was mentioned already, but putting "support player" in quotes is like putting "third baseman" in quotes. It doesn't mean "random guy on staff", it's a position.  Granted, sometimes some weird subculture sets up their own walled garden on Wikipedia, and it falls to random other editors to weed it - but in this particular case, there really are sources, so it's a legit topic.  SnowFire (talk) 00:43, 7 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep thanks to Timothyjosephwood's great edits. Clearly meets the WP:GNG. Patar knight - chat/contributions 02:21, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions.  Satellizer el Bridget  (Talk)  07:47, 8 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete as I also believe there's still not enough convincingly confident for his own actual notable article. SwisterTwister   talk  06:48, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - borderline, but I believe TJW has introduced enough sources to show that the subject has significant coverage in reliable sources. Jujutacular (talk) 19:05, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment As this is overdue for an administrator to assess, I point out that there's been 5 arguments to keep and 4 arguments to delete. While it isn't a !vote, this is a long thread and so I figured it's worth noting down some numbers. I also note that most of the arguments to keep have come from individuals that are heavily involved with eSports content; This isn't a problem in itself, but might be noteworthy in your close or relist decision. KaisaL (talk) 21:31, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment As a sort of closing argument I suppose, since KaisaL and myself seem to be the main proponents here. First, the fact that many involved here are may be part of e-sports editing (not really including myself prior to the past couple of weeks), is may be probably unremarkable. I would expect those from MilHist to be well represented at related AfDs (and would be disappointed if they weren't). Second, I believe the article currently contains significant coverage in secondary sources, which, although being involved in the production of esports related content, are independent of the teams as well as Riot Games. Finally, to dismiss coverage in outlets related to esports ipso facto, presumes categorical non-notability, and precludes the application of, rather than enforces WP:GNG. Timothy Joseph Wood  22:40, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I don't know about the others except for Prisencolin, but I wouldn't count myself as "heavily involved with eSports content". While I do have more familarlity than most people with the area, I've basically never edited those topics before they started popping up in the AfD queues this past week. Patar knight - chat/contributions 03:55, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm not involved in eSports content at all, and merely saw this advertised on WP:VG talk.  (I am roughly familiar with eSports...  and I have no doubt there do exist some eSports articles that are basically impossible to reference.  You just happen to have taken aim at one of the 2 or 3 most notable eSports out there in League of Legends, where there really are a ton of third-party references for it, even for non top-tier players.). SnowFire (talk) 16:00, 13 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep Seems to fit notability and have adequate sources per WP:GNG. Asdklf&#59; (talk) 06:16, 13 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.