Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Luton Town F.C. league record by opponent


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep.   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 20:40, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Luton Town F.C. league record by opponent

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This featured list fails WP:NOT a list of statistics. The results of a club through the years can be presented in many ways. By season is the most logical one, by competition (league, cup, ...) is pretty logical as well. Beyond those, you enter the realm of indiscriminate statistics though. By opponent, by month of the year, by day of the week, home or away, ... While obviously a lot of work has gone into this list, and I don't dispute its accuracy or completeness (reasons why it became a featured list), I don't believe that the basic concept is something that should be allowed on Wikipedia. Whenyou go through Category:English football club statistics, there are only two articles with this format. I believe that the normal format, like in List of Luton Town F.C. seasons, offers more than enough detail and a complete overview of the history of the club. Fram (talk) 14:38, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Also nominated is List of Plymouth Argyle F.C. results by opponent, for which the same arguments apply.
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:40, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Football-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 01:40, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep – I'm sorry, but I feel the need to temporarily come out of retirement over this. I may be the mush who created this list, so maybe a little biased, but here goes anyway...
 * First of all, you appear to have misinterpreted the list's intention. It is not meant to be an overarching history of the club, and it was never meant to be; all I ever intended it to be used for was to provide an easy and convenient way to find out the all-time league records between two particular clubs, something which I personally find quite interesting to do in the run-up to a match, for example.
 * Secondly, you seem to think that this article is intended instead of the other Luton Town lists and articles, which is simply not true. The lists were intended by myself to be companions for each other, to provide an unrivalled base of information on the club in depth, accuracy and accessibility, which I believe that I have to a fair extent achieved, although not completed. This list was meant as a footnote to the records and statistics list, nothing more, nothing less. The List of Luton Town F.C. seasons and all of the other Luton Town articles and lists are all still there if the reader wants to read them; this isn't instead of anything. I worked very hard to ensure that the Luton Town "set" became mostly featured, and tried here to be bold and create a new format. It quickly became an FL, so in my mind I was successful.
 * Thirdly, part of your argument appears to be that "there are only two articles [sic] with this format". You may be aware that this list was the first of its kind on Wikipedia; I know, because I created it myself. But am I to take your comment as saying that were I to create similar lists for more clubs, then they would all be kept? Please forgive me, but I simply don't understand this logic – how would lots of lists which "should [not] be allowed on Wikipedia" be any better than one or two?
 * Finally, I'm afraid that I simply don't see how "by opponent" is as trivial as "by month of the year, by day of the week, home or away".
 * Please keep well, and I await your comments. – Cliftonian the orangey bit 09:13, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep This is a well-written referenced article that collects information on what is a notable subject for the history of the club - an easy to view collection of information on opponents. Whilst I understand the comments regarding the possible myriad of different ways club stats can be collated, and how this could lead to masses of such lists for each club, I think it reasonable to record information on club head to heads, as this is an important aspect of a club's record. I can't see the benefit in wishing to delete such a good article. Eldumpo (talk) 08:14, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Why is how club A fared against club B in the 1920s, 30s, ... an "important aspect of the club's record"? Important is how you fared in year A, B and C in competition A, B and C, not whether you beat club Z during that year or in that competition. Fram (talk) 09:27, 15 February 2010 (UTC)
 * There is significant encyclopedic interest in knowing which teams a club has competed against, and thus the importance can be attributed via the desire for useful historical records. Just because this list can be argued as being 'important' it does not mean that other means of presenting club information are not important. The list only shows the total league record against clubs, and does not break it down into decades or seasons. As well as allowing an understanding of past achievements against clubs, the list provides an easy reference as to whether clubs have ever met in the first place, that would be time-consuming to check by going through relevant league tables. In addition I don't believe (as per WP:NOT) the article is long and sprawling, and it has sufficient explanatory text to be put into context. Eldumpo (talk) 19:11, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Tim Song (talk) 02:40, 19 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Weak keep. I very much like the fact that Luton Town content has been nominated for deletion on the basis of non-notability. However, this is comprehensive, informative, and could not reasonably be contained within the records and statistics section. The list covers every single game they have ever played against a particular club in one line, which does not strike me as excessive. Given that we allow ~3000 lists of the county routes of each county in the United States (those are B roads for the benefit of British readers), and an individual article for many of the roads, I do not think the potential 120 lists of this nature is over the top. WFCforLife (talk) 13:33, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete It's sufficient that the data be available in some order. It doesn't have to be available in any order. That's what database query engines are for. The American Statistical Association has a list of sports data sites from which raw data can be obtained for detailed analysis. There's a site devoted to stats of English soccer leagues.  They have elaborate analysis capabilities.  That's not something a wiki can do well.  --John Nagle (talk) 21:51, 20 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The value of this list is that it compiles Luton Town's Football League, Southern League, United League and Football Conference statistics into one easy-to-use list. To the best of my knowledge, no other site (or book) does this. – Cliftonian the orangey bit 06:34, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * John Nagle - neither of those links contain anything remotely like the level of information displayed in this article. Not even close. Bretonbanquet (talk) 14:01, 21 February 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep I see no reasonable benefit in deleting this article. It's well-written and informative, and contrary to what others have said, this information is not readily attainable elsewhere online. Bretonbanquet (talk) 13:56, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep - my copy of The Definitive Gillingham F.C. has an equivalent table for that club, and I believe other volumes in the series do the same, showing that this sort of analysis is considered important in football and therefore encyclopedic -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 21:30, 21 February 2010 (UTC)
 * Funnily enough, most of the information for this list came from The Definitive Luton Town F.C., another volume in that series. I would say, however that this list is more inclusive and complete because it includes all league matches and not just Football League ones (as the one included in the book does). – Cliftonian the orangey bit 05:05, 22 February 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.