Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/M. Macha Nightmare (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. (non-admin closure) — Theo polisme  23:35, 19 November 2012 (UTC)

M. Macha Nightmare
AfDs for this article: 
 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

She's a witch, LOL. Fails WP:AUTHOR, WP:BK, and WP:GNG. Article was created by an arbcommed wikispammer who has written dozens of articles about people who've attended a "witch festival" that he hosts. Qworty (talk) 22:31, 12 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Comment: I consider the statement "She's a witch, LOL." to be bigoted and offensive. Wicca is a legitimate religion, and its clergy deserve to be treated with respect.Rosencomet (talk) 04:55, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: I'm finding some things in JSTOR and in some other books that suggests that she's used as a source, but not much else. Tokyogirl79 (talk) 04:56, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Hmmm... I wonder if this interview with a student organization would be usable. I'm kind of leaning towards "no", but thought I'd list it here.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 05:20, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep: M. Macha Nightmare is a recognized scholar and teacher within NeoPaganism, but I believe that the article currently lacks the citations needed to back up this fact. I'll start adding more citations to help flesh out the article.  Thanks! Phoenixred (talk) 16:25, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:54, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Authors-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:54, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete Macha appears to be more notable than most witches, with a printed encyclopedia article and interview in the SF Gate and speeches at mainstream Universities. She appears to be taking Pagan studies and education mainstream, or trying, and if successful could be very notable: "She is committed to developing the first, and so far only, program providing Pagans quality higher education and practical training in Pagan ministry." If she were the first to establish an accredited Pagan ministry program at a University it would be easily notable. But currently, the sources are mostly weak because we are not supposed to rely on other encyclopedias, and other than the SF Gate, they all seem like small mentions and not in-depth (or unreliable in the external links). Basically I can't figure out why Macha is notable other than being senior and active in the community for a long time. She has given lots of speeches and interviews, organized conferences, served in boards and committees, written books, journal articles. These are all the normal types of things a late-career person will have accomplished within their field of study, but there is a lack of in-depth coverage in multiple reliable independent sources to take it to the level of Wikipedia notability. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 05:32, 14 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete She does appear to be notable in that world, but I don't see any serious coverage in academic sources. I have to admit to being put off by the nominator's first argument for deletion, "She's a witch, LOL." Wicca is considered by most religious scholars to be a serious religion. That comment was about as helpful as "she's a born again christian, LOL," or other similar expressions of extreme religious intolerance. First Light (talk) 19:51, 15 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep Changing to Keep after finding some more academic sources. She is mentioned frequently as an authority in Cyberhenge: Modern Pagans on the Internet (Routledge 2004) by Douglas E. Cowan. Same with another Routledge book, Enchanted Feminism: Ritual, Gender and Divinity among the Reclaiming Witches of San Francisco by Jone Salomonsen. Also mentioned in The Nature of Magic: An Anthropology of Consciousness (Berg Publishers 2005) by anthropologist Susan Greenwood. Is mentioned as among the "Neopagans and scholars" who were authorities used by Sarah M. Pike in her book New Age and Neopagan Religions in America (Columbia University Press 2004). Is mentioned as a source in Things: Religion and the Question of Materiality (Fordham University Press 2012). First Light (talk) 05:55, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep If she was notable in Articles for deletion/M. Macha Nightmare, then those same reasons should still apply.  Ron h jones (Talk) 01:51, 16 November 2012 (UTC)
 * I looked at that AfD before registering my Delete above. It seemed like the first Keep voter had found two sources and that was good enough for everyone that followed. Problem is, one of those sources is an encyclopedia, which we are not really supposed to use; and the other source is trivial mentions (most of them photography credits!) not in depth. I couldn't find "multiple reliable independent sources in-depth" as in WP:42. -- Green Cardamom (talk) 02:09, 16 November 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep The article needs a lot of work, and fails to mention some of the more notable activities of M. Nightmare. She's quite a notable person, which is why you'll find her smiling face on the cover of Witches & Pagans magazine, issue 25. Folklore1 (talk) 19:40, 17 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. Obviously prominent author in her field, and major spokesperson and leader in the Neo-Pagan community.Rosencomet (talk) 04:55, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep author published since 1981, who seems notable in the Pagan field.   Th e S te ve   08:48, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep - appears compliant with WP:GNG. -- No  unique  names  16:46, 18 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep as one of the founders of the Reclaiming Collective, she is a significant member of the pagan community. Queenlaese (talk) 10:51, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep -- with Comment: M. Macha Nightmare is a Witch (please note the capitalization of her religion as a religion), an author, a Priestess, and an educator. The comment "She's a witch. LOL" is bigoted and disrespectful toward Macha and our religion.  The commenter provides no useful information regarding her inclusion or exclusion from Wikipedia.  Macha was one of my instructors at Cherry Hill Seminary, which offers the first Pagan Master of Divinity degree in the world, of which I am the first recipient (May, 2009, in Pagan Pastoral Counseling).  My own transcript and supporting documentation has been accepted by the Board of Chaplaincy Certification, Inc. (BCCI) for the Association of Professional Chaplains (APC) as equivalent to a graduate theological degree from an accredited seminary -- which is the most that could be hoped for until Cherry Hill Seminary achieves accreditation in the next few years. RedBird 17:23, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep: M. Macha Nightmare is definitely well known withing the Wiccan community. In addition to her other achievements sited here she has been a force in establishing the first Pagan seminary and is currently a prominent member of it's board.  See http://www.cherryhillseminary.org/about/leadership/board-of-directors/m-macha-nightmare/. Also she is an active member of The Covenant of the Goddess and a published author.  I believe that she qualifies for having her entry included in Wikipedia.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.43.36.26 (talk) 18:43, 19 November 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.