Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/MMA 1: The Reckoning


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete as failing WP:GNG. ··· 日本穣 ? · 投稿  · Talk to Nihonjoe ·  Join WP Japan ! 01:39, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

MMA 1: The Reckoning

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Non-notable mixed martial arts event. No significant coverage or lasting historical significance. Primary results reporting. References are not from independent sources. Osubuckeyeguy (talk) 21:35, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions. Osubuckeyeguy (talk) 21:37, 24 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep - "non-notable mma event" - content covers the first EVER mixed martial arts event in Ontario, Canada, just weeks prior to the giant event in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Also, Josh Burkman, Jordan Mein and Chris Horodecki are notable fighters in the MMA world. "lasting historical significance" - see previous point. "references are not from independent sources" - apologies, did not know that was necessary, - http://www.mmamania.com/2011/4/3/2088193/mma-the-reckoning-results-from-the-casino-rama-in-ontario, http://topmmanews.com/2011/04/02/mma-the-reckoning-quick-results/, http://www.sportsnet.ca/mma/2011/04/02/the_reckoning_fight_card/, and so on. Will update the document accordingly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stynn (talk • contribs)
 * Delete Of the three sources provided by the article creator only one has more than simple match results. Being the first event in a particular province is not necessarily notable, IMO, but could help if there were other aspects that might make the event notable.  Having notable fighters on the card does not make the event notable as per WP:NOTINHERITED.  I can find no significant coverage of the event therefore it fails WP:GNG and the article fails WP:ROUTINE.  --TreyGeek (talk) 15:38, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete The article's sources are either not independent or routine sports coverage. I agree with TreyGeek's comments. Jakejr (talk) 17:50, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete. The scale of the event does not appear notable (national or international), and the article itself appears to be routine news coverage. Janggeom (talk) 13:12, 30 December 2011 (UTC)


 * It is historically significant for Ontario (population of over 13 million), and MMA fans, since the UFC has called Toronto the "Fight capital of the world" (http://www.mmafighting.com/2011/10/12/dana-white-calls-toronto-the-ufcs-fight-capital-of-the-world/). Since the fight to get MMA in Ontario was a long one, compared to Vancouver, Montreal, and other major venues in Canada, this event is nationally significant, just as the first MMA event in New York state will be, once MMA is sanctioned there. What is the purpose of deleting this information? If someone wants to find out what the first ever MMA event is in Ontario, why make that harder for them by removing it from Wikipedia? Would we also be removing the fight itself from Burkman's page? Deleting fights, and re-writing history is hardly what Wikipedia is about. The results (verified by several different sources) clearly confirm the event took place, which is the most important part of the article - the date, place, and fighters.  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stynn (talk • contribs) 19:15, 30 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Though I still think keeping this page separate is the most user-friendly and accessible means of data organization for this historic information (as it allows people to see exactly who faught on the event, and how they won, etc), if the information police deem it unworthy for its own page, someone should update this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mixed_Martial_Arts_in_Ontario) to include a significant amount of information from this event. Otherwise, the "Mixed Martial Arts in Ontario" article implies that the event in Toronto was the first, which is historically inaccurate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stynn (talk • contribs)


 * Further Debate Regarding WP:GNG - after a small update to the article, to simplify this debate, can we mutually establish where criteria is not being met here?
 * "Significant coverage" - topic is covered in many articles, ranging from several general sports updates, to a detailed breakdown of the challenges and changes of putting on an MMA show in Ontario compared to other places. I, personally, am not sure what else should be added to the basic article to fulfill this criteria. As such, I think we are still debating whether this has been met satisfactorily, correct?
 * "Reliable" - Several major and independent articles provided, ranging from mainstream (TSN and Sportsnet) to independent MMA sites. Not sure if this was a point of debate.
 * "Sources" - was once a point. Are we still hoping to collect a greater variety of articles on this event to meet this criteria?
 * "Independent of the subject" - Creator of article made an error here in using a promoter (and host venue) of the event as sources. Should be removed. Other sources are independent of the subject itself (though they focus on Canadian sports).
 * "Presumed" - I don't believe there is any controversy regarding this point, but correct me if I am wrong. Stynn (talk) 20:13, 30 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Stynn, when debating an article for deletion, you should only type your vote to keep or delete once. AfDs involve more than counting votes, but limiting each person to one vote makes it easier to follow who is participating in the debate. You should also sign your posts by typing three tildes (~) at the end. I have removed duplicate votes and added your signature where it was still missing. Osubuckeyeguy (talk) 20:46, 30 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Being the first event in Ontario makes this interesting, but not inherently notable. This event featured only a handful of notable fighters and the page, as it currently exists, primarily reports match results, which are just routine sports information. Information about this event could certainly be added to Mixed Martial Arts in Ontario; the event itself, though, does not warrant its own page. Otherwise, we would have a page for the "first" sporting event of every kind in every country, state, and province. There does not appear to be significant independent coverage that establishes the notability of this event - just a handful of reports that the event happened and the results. There are a few articles I found in the London Free Press, but little information outside of Ontario to establish more than local significance. Osubuckeyeguy (talk) 21:04, 30 December 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, Osubuckeyeguy I was using the "keep" thing more to signify "what" i was arguing, moreso than as a vote itself. Didn't realize it was a signifier of a vote.

RE: "Otherwise, we would have a page for the "first" sporting event of every kind in every country, state, and province." - Why is that a problem? I would think people living in a state would be interested in the information about the whens, wheres, whys and whos regarding their first MMA event. Especially somewhere like Ontario and New York, where citizens have been trying to get MMA sanctioned for years. But generally speaking, even in smaller places, isn't that what an encyclopedia is for? Mass-information? The only reason I made this page in the first place was because multiple sources (wikipedia included) were claiming UFC 129 was the first MMA event in Ontario, which was simply incorrect. There was no major, central resource for finding information about this event. And as an MMA researcher, radio host, and columnist, I find wikipedia is an excellent starting point for this type of miscellaneous information, and excluding significant firsts seems somewhat counter-productive to maintaining and cataloguing historical firsts. Regardless of who is or was on it, I would find it valuable to have a page with detailed information on the first MMA event in Brazil, California, New York, etc, and I am sure many others would too. These are key changes for the growth of MMA, and since MMA is still developing, it's basically a history that we are writing now, on Wikipedia. This is why I think it's important to catalogue it correctly, and not just give it a semi-mention on some partially unrelated page. Stynn (talk)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.