Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Machon chana


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   Keep in its now much better form - Peripitus (Talk) 07:29, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Machon chana

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Appears to be rambling commentary, not an encyclopedia article. Ecoleetage (talk) 17:31, 3 July 2008 (UTC) *Delete per above. Bhaktivinode (talk) 03:08, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete – Sorry to say that the school makes no claim to Notability in either the article and or in any information I could find as shown here . In addition, I believe what is currently posted is nothing more than the opening statements of a formal business plan (Executive Summary – Overview – Mission Statement).  Which if this is the case, probably constitutes Spam.  Either way, looks like delete. ShoesssS Talk 18:09, 3 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete whatever this junk is, it's not an encyclopedia article. JuJube (talk) 02:11, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Fabrictramp has done a good effort to make this an article, but it still does not have any notability. Vote remains the same for different reasons. JuJube (talk) 06:33, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete - unencyclopedic rambling. Wasn't even terribly clear to me what the subject of the article actually is. (WP:COI seems to be an issue too - see the talk page.) AndyJones (talk) 07:49, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete. I suspect it is notable but the editor doesn't seem prepared to replace this piece of puffery with a real article, so it must go. andy (talk) 18:32, 4 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions.   --  Fabrictramp  |  talk to me  19:27, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Editing issues should be solved by editing, not deletion. In the spirit of WP:SOFIXIT, I've rewritten the article to be a neutral, verifiable stub. I have no idea whether the school is notable, which is about the only possible deletion reason I see.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  19:34, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Further comment -- note to the closer. If the article is kept, it appears the second word in the title should be capitalized. I won't bother moving it now, in case the result is delete.-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  19:35, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * You've reduced it to an OK stub, but there's still no evidence of notability. I'm still for deletion. andy (talk) 22:59, 5 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Same comment as Andy. AndyJones (talk) 09:00, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment As always, the notability criteria have to be satified. The relevant guideline is WP:ORG. Suggest that the article's authors take a look at the guideline and see what's required. The general minimum requirement for having a Wikipedia article about an organization is that the organization needs to have "significant coverage" by independent reliable sources. Please see the guideline for additional information. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 06:39, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Right now the only listed sources are from the organization's own website, which of course isn't "independent." To avoid a delete, independent reliable sources which discuss the school will need to be found and cited. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 06:44, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Those looking for reliable sources should try an obscure web site known as Google Books. Four or five solid references show up for Machon Chanah (though they lead me to vote for Merge).Yudel (talk) 23:35, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Shirahadasha: THREE "independent reliable sources which discuss the school will need to be found and cited" have now been added and cited in the article, see Lubavitcher Women in America: Identity and Activism in the Postwar Era (State University of New York) 1998, p. 49. and Encounters with American Ethnic Cultures: The Lubavitcher Experience (Philip Leroy Kilbride, Jane Carter Goodale, Elizabeth R. Ameisen, University of Alabama Press), 1990, p. 194. as well as a newspaper article at"Whole religion in one matzoh" by Joyce Shelby, Daily News, Tuesday, April 15th 2008. On this basis, the nominator is respectfully requested to withdraw the nomination. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 08:43, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions.   -- Ratarsed (talk) 08:47, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge/redirect to new section Crown Heights, Brooklyn per numerous precedents. TerriersFan (talk) 15:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Sorry, but it still fails WP:OR. Ecoleetage (talk) 20:28, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Queston. Could you elaborate on how the article still fails WP:OR? I'm not arguing for a keep here (after a quick gsearch, I'm not convinced of notability); I'd just like to learn something, and after reviewing WP:OR, I'm not seeing the original research. Thanks!-- Fabrictramp |  talk to me  20:50, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Merge/redirect with Lubavitch as it's a Lubavitch educational institution.Yudel (talk) 23:35, 6 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep because it is one the first key pioneering schools for Baalas teshuvas (Jewish women from non-Orthodox backgrounds who return to Orthodox and Hasidic Judaism) and it still remains a notable school as such, not only in Chabad but particularly in the world of the Baal teshuva movement and a key trail-blazing institution relating to Orthodox Judaism outreach. The creators of this article did a bad job starting it off, but it has now been improved greatly. It now cites TWO reliable scholarly works that focus on Machon Chana's importance, see Lubavitcher Women in America: Identity and Activism in the Postwar Era (State University of New York) 1998, p. 49. and Encounters with American Ethnic Cultures: The Lubavitcher Experience (Philip Leroy Kilbride, Jane Carter Goodale, Elizabeth R. Ameisen, University of Alabama Press), 1990, p. 194. as well as a newspaper article at"Whole religion in one matzoh" by Joyce Shelby, Daily News, Tuesday, April 15th 2008. The importance of this institution to all of Chabad can be seen from the over 2,500 Google references and citations to it relating to Chabad and Lubavitch centers and sites. IZAK (talk) 08:34, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * NOTE: The article has now been entirely rewritten and expanded with RS. The nominator is requested to withdraw the nomination. Thank you, IZAK (talk) 08:34, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I am sorry, but the article's latest incarnation reads like an advertisement and not an encyclopedia article. Therefore, I will not withdraw the nomination. I believe it is best to allow the AfD discussion to run its course. Ecoleetage (talk) 11:50, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Hi Ecoleetage: There is no other way to write about a reputable and respectable instititution as long as it is done in a matter of fact and NPOV manner that reports the truth. Rather than make accusations that "it reads like an ad", kindly supply some examples of what you like to see in it that would make it read the way you would like it to read. Thank you. IZAK (talk) 03:47, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. There are now multiple references supporting the notability of this school. An article requiring cleanup is not a reason for deletion. --PinchasC | £€åV€ m€ å m€§§åg€  12:41, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - Comment – I’m sorry, I just do not see how this school has established notability. I see no difference between this school and any other secular grade – middle or high school.  In fact, the coverage received by this school would be the same as any other secular grade – middle or high school.  The reference from the New York Times is in passing.  The cites from “Lubavitcher Women in America: Identity and Activism in the Postwar Era”, by Bonnie J. Morris, are no more than I would expect from any write up from a secular individual dealing  within a specific topic area, be it Christian – Jewish – Muslim or Confucianism. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shoessss (talk • contribs)
 * Shoessss: User had once noted  in Articles for deletion/Chaim Dov Keller that: "...Religious sources and media of notable religious organizations are perfectly acceptable reliable sources to establish notability of religious subjects and figures. Notability in the field, not notability in general media, is the standard, and that is met here. There is no problem I can see that can justify a delete vote..." and the same applies here. IZAK (talk) 03:57, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep per IZAK. Bhaktivinode (talk) 13:05, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep - specific claims of notability and now meets WP:N. TerriersFan (talk) 17:23, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment - still hasn't established notability. Claims to be unique as "one of the first...". D'uh, that's not what unique means. And a couple of lengthy quotes doesn't establish the sort of base of coverage that WP:N requires. It's just one school among many as far as I can see. andy (talk) 22:03, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Reply There are now multiple sources. Also, the documentation provided in the article, that Rabbi Menachem M. Schneerson endorsed this institution, does help significantly to estabilish notability. Bhaktivinode (talk) 22:37, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * To Andy: It is most certainly not "one school among many" because it is the pioneering first and still one of the very few (not "many") major Jewish educational insitutions under strict Hasidic auspices dedicated explicitly to educating previously secular Jewish women in their quest to become more religious Orthodox and Hasidic Jewish women. You can count such "schools" in America on one hand, so your claims make no sense. IZAK (talk) 03:57, 9 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep - it seems fixed with complete sources esteblishing notibility. thanks for the user who saved this very intresting subject.--YY (talk) 23:07, 7 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep - whatever problems may have existed with earlier versions seem to have been fixed, because there's not much wrong with how it now looks. -- Zsero (talk) 03:52, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep This is the only full-time seminary for female returnees to Torah Judaism in the US (as far as I know), and it has been around since 1974--34 yrs.!Yehoishophot Oliver (talk) 04:03, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep. Adequate sources. FYI I've added this: Morris, Bonnie. "Female education in the Lubavitcher community: The Beth Rivkah and Machon Chana schools" in Women in spiritual and communitarian societies in the United States. Wendy Chmielewski, et al., eds. Syracuse, NY, 1993. Notability is achievable and any shortcomings are a matter of editing, no AfD needed. Thanks. HG | Talk 10:27, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Agree that after improvements adequate sources have been found and the article meets WP:ORG. --Shirahadasha (talk) 03:08, 9 July 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.