Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Madeline Rogero


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. Firsfron of Ronchester 20:57, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

Madeline Rogero

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Nominated for WP:N concerns - author states subject's notability arises from two facts: Subject is the first female elected to the post of mayor for Knoxville, Tennessee and "significant coverage" by verifiable sources.

The first fact checks out, but all sources noted are exceptionally regional in scope and content and come from just three local news entities. Beyond being the first female elected to the post, it seems the subject has done nothing else notable. As a result, recommend deletion since insufficient sources to demonstrate the subject's notability in the context of having their own Wikipedia page don't appear to exist.

I would also strongly encourage the author of this article to view the process with an open mind, since discussion on the topic before it was brought to AfD was getting a little contentious. It's nothing personal, one way or the other, as far as this editor is concerned. :-) Sidatio (talk) 18:00, 25 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep – It's true her notability is primarily regional (she is covered extensively in regional newspapers), but she has been mentioned on the national front. Here are a few examples: Huffington Post, Daily Kos, Think Progress, Instinct Magazine.  Also note that this article has already passed through the DYK process: Template:Did you know nominations/Madeline Rogero, and passed.  Bms4880 (talk) 18:14, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * P.S. Sorry for the contentiousness, just disagreed over the 7-day tag.  Bms4880 (talk) 18:17, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The aforementioned author in question. Thanks for participating. :-) My primary concern with the national links you cite is that, on their face, they all appear to fail guidelines for reliable sourcing. HuffPo is pretty much Examiner in the fact that it's a content farm (specifically, a content farm with noted editorial bias toward certain political ideologies), ThinkProgress is unabashedly slanted, Daily Kos has the same issues, and the Instinct link (singular) is a blog repost. I don't know if any of those sources meet Wikipedia standards for reliability given the aforementioned issues. Got anything else?


 * As far as its DYK status, it should be noted that I'm not arguing whether or not it should have gone through that process, but I suppose it's possible that you reference such because going through the DYK process may be a notability standard now. (I know it wasn't in the recent past, but things change quickly on the internet.) Does passing through DYK automatically confer notability? Sidatio (talk) 18:25, 25 October 2012 (UTC)


 * During the DYK process, 8 seasoned editors looked at the article and none had any issue with its notability. DYK may not be a guarantee of notability, but it's interesting that so many established editors read the article, and not one raised the issue of notability.  Bms4880 (talk) 18:34, 25 October 2012 (UTC)


 * If it's not a notability criterion, then, I'd say the location of reliable sourcing from more than a regional standpoint is a far more important consideration. Now, while I can't find anything that fits the definition per WP's guidelines, that doesn't mean the sourcing doesn't exist. Can we find ANYTHING national that more concretely meets the reliable sourcing requirement? Sidatio (talk) 18:50, 25 October 2012 (UTC)


 * I'm not sure what you mean by "concrete." And I wouldn't dismiss the DYK nomination.  Again, of the nine established editors who have looked at this article, you're the only one who has raised questions of notability.  Bms4880 (talk) 21:07, 25 October 2012 (UTC)


 * This may be the first time the issue's ever been raised, and since we've established that DYK isn't a notability standard, I feel like we're straying too far away from the notability concern that prompted the initial nomination. It is, after all, what we're attempting to resolve in regard to this particular article, not whether it should have been a DYK subject. So, if you don't mind, I'd very much like to set that to the side as it doesn't resolve notability concerns.


 * When I ask for sources that are more "concrete" in their reliability, I'm asking for something from an established media outlet. CNN, Reuters, AP, Fox, NBC, ABC, CBS, and so forth. As noted above, the links you cite in an attempt to establish notability outside of the Knoxville region all come from questionable sources per Wikipedia's guidelines on the topic, save for the Instinct link which, in reality, is just a repost from a blog that DEFINITELY doesn't meet the criteria for being called a Wikipedia-worthy source. Unfortunately, I've found nothing of the sort - just a lot of local stuff about a local figure.


 * I'm sorry, but at present I really don't see where the sourcing is to back up claims of sufficient notability for inclusion in Wikipedia. I don't mean any offense by this. As writing, it's good stuff. But as a Wikipedia article, it really needs more evidence of notability standards being met in my view. Bill Haslam became Governor of Tennessee, Victor Ashe became a US Ambassador. Both deserve their Wikipedia pages as a result. But Madeline Rogero - at this time, anyway - doesn't appear to rise to even those levels in regard to her personal profile and accomplishments. I'm really sorry to have to say that, and if you've got some reliable sourcing to disprove that contention I'm certainly open to considering it.


 * At present, however, do you REALLY believe, from an independent point of view, that this article meets the requirements as set forth in WP:N? Sidatio (talk) 22:02, 25 October 2012 (UTC)


 * The sources are there. The national sources are not ideal, but she is being discussed on the national level, to go along with hundreds of regional articles.  Perhaps there are better ones in print media, I haven't bothered to check.  She is the mayor of a reasonably large city.  It's not uncommon for mayors of cities with populations similar to Knoxville's to have their own articles: Joseph Petty (Worcester, Massachusetts), Tommy Battle (Huntsville, Alabama), John Marks (Tallahassee, Florida), George Heartwell (Grand Rapids, Michigan), Angel Taveras (Providence, Rhode Island), and Ron Littlefield (Chattanooga, Tennessee). Are we going to delete those articles as well?  Eight other established editors agreed that the Rogero article was notable enough to be mentioned on Wikipedia's main page.  If I didn't think she was notable, I would not have spent the time creating the article.  And I might ask you the same thing-- of all the tacky, poorly-sourced, questionable articles out there, this is the one that caught your attention?  We're not going to agree on this, so if others will offer their opinions, we'll proceed from there. Bms4880 (talk) 00:40, 26 October 2012 (UTC)


 * That's probably for the best. The sources are there for REGIONAL notability, but the sources clearly aren't there for anything beyond that. As to the other pages you cite, I'll be more than happy to give them a look, but we're not discussing them on this page. We're discussing the Madeline Rogero article. If I were you I would strongly consider finding better print sources to add; otherwise, I fear this topic is so non-notable that we're going to have to relist for consensus because it appears you and I are the only ones that care to discuss it - unless one of the article's other two or three main editors comes along. I'm sorry if you take any offense to any of this (and it really seems like you are - this isn't a personal attack against you, I assure you), but so far we've got your average run-of-the-mill politician of no more than regional import - and if we gave every run-of-the-mill politician of no more than regional import a Wikipedia page, we'd need quite a few more servers, wouldn't we? Sidatio (talk) 01:06, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Tennessee-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:57, 26 October 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 18:57, 26 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep - A significant element of the argument for deletion is the absence of citations to articles in major national/international-scope publications, but nothing in WP:GNG or WP:POLITICIAN indicates that notability requires that the significant coverage required for notability must have been in a publication of national or international stature/scope. Rather, the article subject must have been profiled in depth in multiple news feature articles by journalists. Madeline Rogero meets the GNG coverage test based on three articles by three different journalists: this December 2011 in-depth profile in the Knoxville News Sentinel (by Georgiana Vines), the 2003 profiles in Metro Pulse (by Joe Sullivan) that are cited in the article but is not currently online, and this 2012 profile in Metro Pulse (by Jack Neely). Additional articles in these same newspapers and on blog sites like Huffington Post and Daily Kos are additional indicators of notability.
 * Moreover, old versions of WP:POLITICIAN and various discussions of WP:POLITICIAN that are archived at Wikipedia talk:Notability (people)/Archive 2011 have suggested that mayors who lead large cities (i.e., not ceremonial mayors) are generally able to meet the GNG. As the mayor who leads a city of 178,874 people that is the center of a metropolitan region of more than one million people, Madeline Rogero is a local politician of the class who typically receive sufficient coverage to indicate notability. --Orlady (talk) 03:19, 27 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep Passes the GNG with flying colours.  There is no regional limitation on Reliable Sources.  The New York Times is just as "regional" as the Knoxville News Sentinel, they just have a bigger market.    Th e S te ve   09:28, 28 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep. Nomination fails on both counts. The fact that she's the first female mayor is frankly irrelevant, but some would consider that notable. What is relevant is that the article is well sourced; the fact that the sources are regional does not make them any less reliable or less verifiable. There is no requirement that sources be national in scope. There are plenty of reasons why a source or set of sources may not be appropriate for Wikipedia, this is not one of them. -- NINTENDUDE 64 02:47, 29 October 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep. I suspect the nominator needs to re-read WP:GNG's section on "significant" coverage. --Philosopher Let us reason together. 18:51, 30 October 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.