Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Magdalena Cernat


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   no consensus. Feel free to renominate if so desired. SarahStierch (talk) 01:12, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Magdalena Cernat

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I see absolutely no in-depth coverage of this individual in independent sources. What we have right now is the following:


 * 1 A content-free entry in a self-published directory meant to advertise plays now showing
 * 2 More or less the same thing
 * 3 Likewise
 * 4 A blurb written by the subject's employer
 * 5 A blog post

The only possible section of WP:ENT the subject might meet is: "has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions", specifically the "stage performances" part. However, I don't really see evidence of that. Without going through all her roles, let's just note that in her latest play, Omul cu mârţoaga, the cast looks like this: "Daniel Badale, Ioan Andrei Ionescu, Gavril Pătru, Monica Davidescu, Raluca Petra, Marius Bodochi, Andrei Finţi, Mihai Verbiţchi, Bogdan Muşatescu, Magdalena Cernat/Amalia Ciolan, Ion Ionuţ Ciocia". That's right - almost at the bottom.

I'm sure the subject has had an honorable career, but not every stage actor is worthy of an encyclopedic biography, and there's no indication this is the case here. - Biruitorul Talk 01:05, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Romania-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:22, 23 October 2013 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:23, 23 October 2013 (UTC)


 * Hi Biruitorul, and thank you for your contributions. I don't see how this actress is not notable and I don't see how the multiple sources don't show that. There is also an article about her on the Romanian Wikipedia. If you feel she's not notable, perhaps you could nominate the Romanian article for deletion first. Then we can see what Romanian editors think about these Romanian sources. Cheers, Azylber (talk) 19:39, 31 October 2013 (UTC)


 * No, Azylber, that's not how it works. You need to demonstrate, through "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject", that the subject is notable. I've shown that the coverage in the article is either trivial or not independent, and you have not specifically addressed that. What happens on ro.wiki, or what editors there think of her notability, has no bearing on this discussion. - Biruitorul Talk 13:54, 1 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, KTC (talk) 15:10, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

 
 * CommentThe Romanian site only has one reference entry, as a Romanian "star" one would think there would be more on the Romanian site than the English site. Also she has no entries on IMDB which does have foreign films in its ranks as well.  Even I have an IMDB profile as an extra in a few things when I did some consulting and I don't deserve a wiki article at all.  I am leaning towards delete but I'm not able to say if those 5 references are valid independent sources or not. DarExc (talk) 21:30, 2 November 2013 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Mark Arsten (talk) 00:33, 11 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Comment - About the above comment on the cast of her last play - I presume it was intended to point out that she is the only one in the cast - but that type of role takes quite a bit of skill, so I don't see how this is a point against notability. &mdash;Anne Delong (talk) 05:42, 12 November 2013 (UTC)
 * No, the point was to show that there were twelve actors in the play, and that she was right near the bottom of the cast list.
 * In any event, WP:ENT isn't concerned with whether there were twelve or one or a hundred actors, but whether a particular actor "has had significant roles in multiple notable ... stage performances". The article on the play in question is pretty much the only independent review of her work, and given that even in this case, the only reference to her is just a mention of her name near the end of a fairly long cast list, I think it's reasonable to say that no, the subject has not had "significant roles in multiple notable ... stage performances". - Biruitorul Talk 15:04, 12 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Delete - We do not have any reliable sources that point to notability. Clearly she is an actress, just not a notable one. WP:ENT says that for Actors, the standard is whether the person:
 * Has had significant roles in multiple notable films, television shows, stage performances, or other productions;
 * Has a large fan base or a significant "cult" following; or
 * Has made unique, prolific or innovative contributions to a field of entertainment.

There is no indication that this person satisfies these criteria. -- Ssilvers (talk) 04:04, 13 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Keep - Hi Ssilvers, and thank you for your comments. I think your opinion makes a lot of sense, and to be honest, at this point in time I am not sure myself whether this subject is notable enough or not. I understand the criteria you explain, but when I see that this person appears in so many different independent sources (and I've just added a few more), that's when I begin to doubt.
 * So I suggested to Biruitorul, the editor who proposed the deletion, that being he's Romanian and the subject is Romanian and there exists an article about this subject on the Romanian Wikipedia, perhaps he could nominate the Romanian article for deletion first. Then we would be able to see what Romanian editors think about these Romanian sources and about the notability of this Romanian person. But he has refused to do it and he hasn't explained why. I think that's a pity, because it would allow us to make a much more informed decision here.
 * Cheers, Azylber (talk) 04:30, 13 November 2013 (UTC)


 * Let's first review the sources added by Azylber:
 * Yet another directory entry. This one's as meaningless as the others; there is no depth of coverage. Also, given that this directory has some 389,000 entries (I checked), inclusion in said directory is clearly no indicator of anything other than being an actor.
 * Unfortunately, I can't see the full document, and cannot gauge the context in which her name appears. My educated guess is that her name appears as part of a cast list, which again does nothing to prove WP:ENT is met. But in either case, the burden of showing the relevance of the source rests on you, not on me.
 * For starters, a search result is not a source. You cannot (legitimately) cite a search result in an article. However, just for the record, these are also cast lists, nothing more.
 * Look. Cernat has been acting for 37 years. Given that she's not totally obscure, it's normal that her name is going to crop up from time to time as part of cast lists, directory entries and the like. I mean, it would be strange if it didn't. However, what remains glaringly lacking, three weeks into this discussion, is any indication she passes the WP:BASIC standard of biographical notability: "she has been the subject of multiple published secondary sources". Has her name appeared on lists? Yes. Has she ever come close to being the subject of any independent written work? No, not at all.
 * Finally, no, I'm not first going to go over to ro.wiki to nominate this. No guideline requires or even suggests this. This is a matter for editors on en.wiki to resolve, and we are doing so, even if rather slowly. - Biruitorul Talk 14:53, 13 November 2013 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.