Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maggie Siner


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. While the subject seems to be on the borderline of notability, the consensus in this discussion is that this individual is on the non-notable side of that borderline.  —&#8288;Scotty Wong &#8288;— 19:34, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Maggie Siner

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There are sources in the article that make it look legit, but once I scrape below the surface a bit, I cannot find any sources that are in-depth and independent.There are one or two good mentions, but no record of museum collections or significant shows outside of the private gallery circuit that might make her meet WP:NARTIST. --- Possibly &#9742; 02:25, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Artists-related deletion discussions.   --- Possibly &#9742; 02:25, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions.   --- Possibly &#9742; 02:25, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 09:51, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Rhode Island-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 09:52, 18 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of New Jersey-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 09:52, 18 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment. Most of the sources are from blogs or sources closely connected to the subject (her webpage, etc.) I did find a few possible sources: The Piedmont Virginian/Spring 2012, Leiper's Creek Gallery, Claremont Contemporary Art, Pryor Fine Art, but that's really about it. I am not sure that article passes WP:ARTIST, which is a shame, because she is obviously very talented and her artwork is splendid. Mulling it over until others weigh in. ExRat (talk) 13:42, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * , I noticed that https://leiperscreekgallery.com/artists/maggie-siner/ starts with "Maggie Siner is a quiet voice in the contemporary art world yet her paintings are held dear for their enduring qualities." https://www.pryorfineart.com/artists/maggie-siner has "A quiet voice in contemporary art, Siner’s paintings are held in special esteem for their enduring qualities:" http://sloanemerrillgallery.com/maggie-siner has: "Maggie Siner is a quiet voice in the contemporary art world yet her paintings are held dear for their enduring qualities:" http://www.thecooleygallery.com/blog/previous/6 has "Maggie Siner is a quiet voice in the contemporary artworld yet her paintings are held dear for their enduring qualities:" I don't think those are independent, reliable sources. This is promotional material, not independent art criticism. Vexations (talk) 14:19, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Yes, I suppose you are correct. Going to have to go with Delete then. ExRat (talk) 14:24, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It is also worth mentioning that he article is here because the person who wrote it made several trips to Venice to interview the artist. At some point they became friends and the article creator continued to edit/maintain the page. See the talk page for four new maintenance edits that are requested. I really wonder if we would have a page on her if it were not for these COI efforts, which is why I nominated it. --- Possibly &#9742; 14:43, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you. That was very enlightening. Definitely decisive in my vote for deletion above then. ExRat (talk) 14:56, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Hi there I think it is not fair on Morningbastet tu showel suspiscions of retributed contributing, I think she discovered the artist, started to write and then befriended her not the other way round. However I have found that the Thomas Balch Library has acquired one of her paintings but they have not yet put it up on their website. However the information is here. I think the subject of this article is effetively in a grey zone of notability, but still the longevity of her appearances (from 1988) is a fact. It is such a shame though that so many primary sources were used, but Morningbastet just made a newbie mistake there :/Nattes à chat (talk) 15:13, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * There is no suspicions at all here. Morningbastet confirmed that they worked in person with the artist to create the article through interviews, and then maintained the article over the years as a friend. Those are just facts that came from Morningbastet. --- Possibly &#9742; 15:41, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * I have received from Morningbastet about 4 scanned articles of printed newspapers but there are no online versions. The newspapers are Loudoum Time's Mirror, Elan Magazine among (which this one cited in the references : “Bones Become Man’s Likeness”, Washington Post, April 4, 1988). I can send the articles for a check. I think this establishes the fact that she is known over a period of time. I am afraid that most of the articles can only be found in their printed form. There is also an article in the "American artist"  from Betsy schein Goldman of 1993 which is centered on her an not an interview. I think it would be a mistake to delete this article just because the refs are not online.   Nattes à chat (talk) 18:57, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * , just a note that the fantastic Wikipedia library (https://wikipedialibrary.wmflabs.org) provides free access to the The Times Digital Archive 1785-2014 via Gale. Vexations (talk) 22:06, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Thank you . Where can I find versions of these two articles :
 * “Sculptor Recreates Face for Deputies”, Washington Post, Feb. 6, 1988
 * “Bones Become Man’s Likeness”, Washington Post, April 4, 1988 Nattes à chat (talk) 21:26, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * , You can find that Via proquest, also in the Wikipedia Library. https://www-proquest-com.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/docview/306976024/E040F88207BE4185PQ/1?accountid=196403I just realized that I misread your earlier message and assumed you meant The Times, which I why I referred you to Gale, but I now see you meant the Loudoun Times-Mirror, a local newspaper. The Times doesn't have anything on Siner. Vexations (talk) 21:55, 21 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Weak delete I did a search on ProQuest and there were a few sources better than mere mentions: a 1993 article on her in American Artist magazine (just the summary); a fairly short article in the Washington Post; and a half-decent article in a publication called Roll Call. I suspect if all the sources were gathered she might pass WP:GNG but so far I'm not seeing enough out there. Curiocurio (talk) 19:11, 19 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak delete I found a 2019 Washington Post review that has three paragraphs about her work, and a 2017 Washington Post review with two sentences, a 2019 local news with four sentences of attention to her work, a 2008 local news interview with an artist citing Siner as an influence, a 2016 art gallery's blog interview with another artist citing Siner as a mentor, a 2016 interview with some WP:SECONDARY context and commentary in Nashville Arts Magazine, a fairly promotional 2016 mention in the Richmond Times-Dispatch, and the 2010 Roll Call article focused on her, but this is not enough for WP:NARTIST and also does not appear sufficient to support WP:BASIC. Beccaynr (talk) 04:20, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment On ProQuest, there is a May 1991 Washington Post article titled "Neighbors" with quotes from her, as well as a general reference to her experience teaching anatomy at Georgetown University and as a medical illustrator, a mention about how 3 years prior she assisted police, how she is currently planning an educational trip to China, that she previously taught at the Cleveland Institute of Art in France for 6 months, and she is currently showing work at a local gallery. The abstract for the American Artist feature is two lines and includes, "Maggie Siner is a prolific artist whose ease with her chosen medium and understanding of color and light make her a standout among those working in oil". Based on the Elan magazine About page, and its submission guidelines, the publication does not appear to have the type of editorial standards to be a notability-building source per the guidelines. The Loudon Times-Mirror is a weekly county newspaper, and while I would prefer to review the article, I think more would still be needed to support WP:BASIC even if it is a solid, in-depth feature. Beccaynr (talk) 20:22, 20 September 2021 (UTC) comment updated (website reference removed) to reflect additional research Beccaynr (talk) 20:42, 20 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep I saw there is an exhition here going on now at the Dr. Bernard Heller Museum in New York and there is an exhibition catalog HERE where for this exhibition, which comforts me with the idea that her work is being recongnized. There were articles about her in 1988 according to the references so notability is demonstrated throughout time. For sure she is in a grey zone, but I think that given the current exhibition her notability has not disappeared and could progress in the future. Nattes à chat (talk) 09:35, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * It may be worth noting that the Heller museum is a religious institute and not an art museum. The two sources given do not help much as they consist of a name check on the site, which lists about 50 other artists in the show, and a single sentence description of her work in the catalogue, presumably written by the artist. --- Possibly &#9742; 11:06, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Being a religious museum nonetheless makes it a museum and Siner appears in the exhibition catalog. I am searching for more of these exhibition catalogs as I don't think this has been done. Nattes à chat (talk) 14:07, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
 * A group show in a religious museum is something, but what is needed to establish notability or artists is a set of reviews or critical texts that are independent of the artist and talk about their work in depth. Exhibition catalogues are not great as they are produced in concert with the artists to show the artist in a favourable light. Another possibility is that if the artist has been included in museum collections, these can be used to establish notability via WP:NARTIST. Neither of these seem to be true here, and several skilled editors have found only minor coverage. I'll stop commenting here. --- Possibly &#9742; 14:16, 20 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep There is abundant and centered press coverage for Maggie Siner from 1988 to 2020 and a centered article originally in italian by Gianfranco Munarotto on Ytaly, a 2006 centered article on Elan magazine from Sally Proutz, by independent critics and peers. Some of the press articles, for example the 1988 articles about the breakthrough identification of a murder victim through her facial reconstruction skills,  are only available in paper version, that I can provide by mail, if need be. She has had many solo exhibition in Alliance française de Venise (2014) Washington Studio Gallery (2013), Alliance Française de Washington (2010), Artists Museum (1996), Bernard Heller Museum (2019-current), Loudoun Museum (1986), American University Library (1996) and others. These exhibition are not yet mentioned in the article Morningbastet (talk) 11:10, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment The 2016 Ytali feature is available online: Maggie Siner: The Non-conformity of True Art, and as noted above, Elan does not appear to be a sufficiently reliable source to support notability. Beccaynr (talk) 16:03, 21 September 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete No doubt she is a wonderful teacher, but the sources are too weak, and she has no work in any major collections. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 17:32, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete it may be possible to bring the article to an acceptable standard, but the article is so over-the-top promotional or fan-crufty that I don't see how it could be rescued. Much of the sourcing is to unreliable or non-secondary sources. https://www.elanmagazine.com, https://www.pryorfineart.com/, http://annemarchand.blogspot.com/, https://www.maggiesiner.com/, https://www.galleryflux.com/, https://www.washingtonstudioschool.org/, https://maggiesiner.com/workshop/, https://intheartiststudio.com/ and https://wsimag.com/ are all unacceptable. Listing what looks like every single lecture she ever gave. quoting al the flowery prose that ever appeared in print and the inclusion of en entire paragraph quoted from a blog by self-admitted non-experts, ("They aren’t experts, they are like you," per https://intheartiststudio.com/about/ ) is so far past WP:UNDUE, that almost everything would have to be deleted. That the subject meets none of the criteria in WP:NARTIST also doesn't make the case for her notability any more convincing. Vexations (talk) 19:53, 21 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete per Possibly, Vexations, and Beccaynr.4meter4 (talk) 23:22, 24 September 2021 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete per Vexations. Heartmusic678 (talk) 15:43, 27 September 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.