Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mahdi Satri


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Per WP:BLP. Given that serious concerns have been raised that this living person even exists, or did what the article says he did, the "keep" (or "merge") side would have needed to address the issue of source quality at some depth. Most don't, and instead we get irrelevant commentary such as claims of bias or something about a "voice in the wilderness".

If the sourcing issue had been addressed, on balance we'd probably have consensus to cover him, at least for now, at Muslim supporters of Israel, so any recreation of this or similar content (with unimpeachable sources) should probably first happen there.  Sandstein  20:08, 24 August 2016 (UTC)

Mahdi Satri

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Fails WP:BIO, a self-published source cited 8 times, another source repeatedly found to be unreliable at RS/N (Arutz Sheva) cited twice more and an interview in an online magazine does not notability make. Can find zero mention of this person in mainstream reliable sources. Nableezy 03:27, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Nableezy 03:33, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Palestine-related deletion discussions. Nableezy 03:33, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Israel-related deletion discussions. Nableezy 26 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment I went to Google's Israeli site, hoping to find the spelling of Mr. Satri's name in Hebrew to help find additional sources (as I've done at other AfDs). Instead, I found page after page of results, hundreds of websites with identical content. In English. "'I receive regular threats from both Arab Israelis and Palestinians, via social media and by phone,' said Mahdi Satri, 17, a resident of Jadeidi-Makr, east of Acre." Almost like somebody has spammed his story all over the web. Very disappointing. I didn't find a single page about him in Hebrew. Nor anything resembling original reporting. Perhaps an editor in Israel can find some local coverage, because I had hoped to and wasn't able to. I'm withholding judgment for now, but this is starting to smell like a hoax to me. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 04:13, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * CommentI didn't find anything in Hebrew. Also I searched by the village name and nothing pops up in local news. So, I guess as for now it's a one time news event. BTW, hundreds of website with identical content may be an outcome of some article published by Reuters or similar news agency. Their articles are being copied over and over again with the same content. It's like a stock for articles for sites, that do not have their own journalists. Arthistorian1977 (talk) 12:11, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment Here's an Algemeiner story about him, where they interviewed him, not copy paste from other sites: http://www.algemeiner.com/2016/07/24/arab-israeli-teen-fearful-yet-undeterred-by-threats-from-fellow-muslims-palestinians-for-outspoken-zionism-know-that-i-died-a-dreamer-interview/ Sir Joseph (talk) 13:42, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * That is in the article already, and it is the only source that is even slightly indicative of notability. It isn't enough. Zerotalk 13:44, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

It is completely ridiculous that someone could get an article without far better evidence of notability. Zerotalk 13:04, 28 July 2016 (UTC) *Delete at the moment. Merge for now into Muslim_supporters_of_Israel. Unfortunately, he can get to local news if something happens to him. For now, I didn't find anything in Hebrew. His story can be an interesting part is someone will be up to task to expand Muslim_supporters_of_Israel. Arthistorian1977 (talk) 12:14, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete. This guy did nothing except express an opinion to an online newspaper and put some totally uninteresting stuff on an [http:bdsguide.com uncitable website]. He didn't actually do anything at all. The initial story was quoted in a few other places but no other news outlet bothered to get their own interview.
 * Delete. Another source, of the exiguous number found, namely ENLACE JUDÍO MÉXICO, egregiously fails RS as well. One statement by an Arab adolescent in a village in Israel clearly does not constitute news, any more than Hanan Schlesinger warrants a page simply on the strength of his declaration, as a settler and rabbi, that he defends the opposite thesis, Palestinian rights. I did add news re Schlesinger's activism on a page relevant to a wider discourse, about a year ago, by the way. One cannot create bios on meme reproduction as here, but only when a critical mass is reached on on the subject over time. Nishidani (talk) 10:28, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Merge for now into Muslim_supporters_of_Israel, there are sources that state that he is a supporter and the fact that he is part of Likud kiddies and being attacked for his views should be fine for inclusion into that article. If more original sources can be found to expand, then we can revisit this again in the future. Sir Joseph (talk) 13:48, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Merge per and .--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:35, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * A merge would require some actual reliable third-party sources about this person. All that exists about the supposed subject of this article is an interview in which the supposed subject makes unsubstantiated and self-aggrandizing claims. There is nothing in this article that belongs anywhere on Wikipedia. Im not even sure this person exists.  nableezy  - 15:43, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * The Algemeiner has an interview with him. Sir Joseph (talk) 15:49, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Ya, Im aware that Algemeiner has published an interview with somebody with this story. I cant find any type of verification for anything the person that gives this story anywhere. You would think such an unusual set of events would be in more well-known sources like the Jerusalem Post, or the Times of Israel, Yedioth Ahronoth. But its not. Its a NY based web magazine that has an interview with somebody who says they are in Israel. Funny how that works out.  nableezy  - 16:23, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * We accept that word of journalists that an interviewee "exists."E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:13, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * And if this were a better source I would so accept it. Also, please dont modify my comments, it's incredibly rude.  nableezy  - 21:35, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment This is quite reliable news source in Israel: . Arthistorian1977 (talk) 07:29, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Not really, its been repeatedly discussed with mixed results at WP:RSN, eg Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_75. I wouldnt use Arutz Sheva for the day of the week personally, and if they publish something that other sources with a better reputation dont, even those sources on the same ideological spectrum (Jerusalem Post, Times of Israel) then I would think one would be wise to be cautious in using it.  nableezy  - 17:41, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * 's personal views notwithstanding, are we really now debating whether Arutz Sheva, with Israel's third-largest weekend circulation according to Wikipedia, is a reliable source?  Kamel  Tebaast  19:05, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I posted a link to RS/N, not my personal views, Sherlock. Having a large circulation does *not*edited a reliable source make, otherwise National Enquirer or The Sun would be reliable sources. Arutz Sheva has a reputation for being the voice of the settlers, but not one for accuracy or fact checking.  nableezy  - 19:38, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Actually, you did post your personal views. You even wrote the word "personally", in that you would not use "Arutz Sheva for the day of the week". Also, to be fair, I think you meant "Having a large circulation does not a reliable source make".  Kamel Tebaast  19:58, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Ok, I posted that personal view. The main point, which you failed to respond to, is that they arent simply my personal view, and that this source routinely ends up at RS/N as it often publishes garbage that no respectable source would touch. But thanks for the correction.  nableezy  - 21:45, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * So Radical Islamic terrorists visit the White House and Giulio Meotti, when it was found he never wrote anything but plagiarized his articles, was fired from mainstream journals and found a home on Arutz Sheva. I could go on for an hour about A7 as a joke in poor taste unreality show, but the ad break in my movie's just about to end. It has no place on Wikipedia.Nishidani (talk) 20:18, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Arutz Sheva is like Fox News and MSNBC what you see depends on where you stand. However, personal opinions aside, profiles and interviews in legitimate media like Arutz Sheva are secondary and count towards notability. Period.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:56, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * You dont quite get to decide that. Period.  nableezy  - 21:45, 27 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep Appears to be a group of anti-Israel pro-Palestine editors wikiwashing a story that has gained traction in pro-israeli news sources. Bolter21 believes that the use of criminal murder of a sleeping child as a terrorist tactic condemned by US state department is "not notable". Malik Shabazz says video of a Afghan youth pledging allegience to Islamist terrorist organization is not evidence of a religious motivated terrorist attack. Nableezy also has a long history of deleting content which defames terrorists or supports counter-terrorism efforts. Excluding pro-Israel sources violates the spirit of NPOV which is include all views, not delete the politically incorrect views of a topic. To doubt the very existence of the person shows further bias against the subject Bachcell (talk) 16:06, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Wtf are you babbling about? What pro-Israel source are people excluding? <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 16:23, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Nableezy, please stay civil. Debresser (talk) 16:58, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Civility is more than the meaning of the acronyms we use. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 06:48, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * I tried to find some sources about him in Hebrew and I didn't. You claim pro-israeli news sources exist. Could you please post them here or even better add them to the article? Thank you Arthistorian1977 (talk) 07:39, 27 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep A notable voice in the wilderness. There are sources too. This will probably never be a large article, but that is not a per-requisite. Debresser (talk) 16:58, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Could you please post sources here or even better add them to the article? I didn't find anything beside two already mentioned in article either in Hebrew or English. Thank you. Arthistorian1977 (talk) 07:47, 27 July 2016 (UTC)

*Keep [by creator of the page that is the subject of this AfD]
 * The idea to merge into Muslim supporters of Israel is, in itself, argument to keep. In that entire article, and specifically in the Israel section, not one youth is listed, let alone in the nature, fervor, and methodologies of Satri’s pro-Israel advocacy. The fact that Satri, since age 12, has basically stood alone against physical violence and death threats (including from his own village, Hamas, and those in Ramallah), makes this notable. The only question is, when Sarti is murdered and a Wikipedia article is written about him, how long will it take for the Wikiwashing debate to ensue that the article should be merged with Israeli-Palestinian conflict (2015-present) or List_of_violent_incidents_in_the_Israeli–Palestinian_conflict,_[add date here]?    Kamel  Tebaast  18:36, 26 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Merge Hopefully, as creator of the article, my opinion will carry added weight to merge. I realize that at this point, he has not attained enough notoriety for a singular encyclopedia article. If that time comes, we can always give him one. Until then, I think he should be added to Muslim supporters of Israel. <span style="font-size:smaller;:'arial bold',;border:1px solid Black;"> Kamel Tebaast  21:52, 10 August 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment I hail his courage and him standing alone against people in his village and family. But, the encyclopedia is about sources and verifiability. As soon as there any no reliable sources in either language, what is the rationale for keeping an independant article? Arthistorian1977 (talk) 07:50, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * This is English Wikipedia so, as far as I understand, we must not find Hebrew sources for every story that occurs in Israel. That said, Arutz Sheva, as you pointed out above, is a reliable source from Israel and is in both Hebrew and English. <span style="font-size:smaller;:'arial bold',;border:1px solid Black;"> Kamel Tebaast  15:40, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Certainly you can bring sources in Hebrew publications - below I bring one in Norwegian. Cheers.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:08, 27 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete, pr nom, (Btw, when I was 17, I was 100% pro-Israeli, too!!) Huldra (talk) 21:13, 26 July 2016 (UTC)
 *  weak keep  I  did what I usually do.  I googled him.  There are sources not yet on the page.  This article  in Norge Idag  should be added ot the page. It is a 27 July profile (not a long one) written by a Norwegian that draws on published articles about Satri and on Satri's online writing about Israel.  Granted, this is a case of marginal, recent notability.  But Satri is drawing press attention, and because his "career" as an activist is so new I urge that we consider WP:RAPID and perhaps keep ad "no consensus" for now, revisting in 6 months or a year to see how this looks then.  (with a prayer that he lives that long.) .E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:07, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Or, if not kept, Merge to Muslim supporters of Israel.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:56, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


 * LoL, the Norge Idag -source is not a WP:RS; its editor Finn Jarle Sæle, and his wife, Anita Apelthun Sæle are notorious  supporters of the Israeli settlers on the West Bank. They are both ardent "Covenant"-believers, (according to Abraham (Genesis 15))  that is, they think the northern-most border of Israel should be at Euphrates. I kid you not. Huldra (talk) 23:26, 27 July 2016 (UTC)
 * It is a Christian newspaper in Norway. Neither your personal opinion or the political opinion of the editors changes the fact that it is an edited, secondary source that supports notability.E.M.Gregory (talk) 09:01, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * To equal Norge Idag with Norwegian Christians, would be like equaling  Westboro Baptist Church with US Christians. Norge Idag  have had campaigns agains gays in "leadership" position, at the same time as they advocate a centre, where they "cure disease by prayers".  And here they write that Elor Azariya, (the soldier who killed a Palestinian at Tel Rumeida recently,) did so as the Palestinian was "apparently about to detonate a bomb". Look at the video of that shooting and tell me if that is even close to the truth.  Huldra (talk) 20:43, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * , did you actually write "truth"? Please share with me the link to a Wikipedia policy that discusses applying "truth" to articles. As far as I have seen, Wikipedia is mostly trying to reach a consensus, but that is generally divided along political, philosophical, religious, and other lines. <span style="font-size:smaller;:'arial bold',;border:1px solid Black;"> Kamel Tebaast  23:05, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * User:Kamel Tebaast: I´m quite aware that there are contributors to Wikipedia who are unfamiliar with the concept of "truth", thank you. Huldra (talk) 23:25, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * You just love scraping the bottom of the barrel dont you. Ill repeat for the closer, this supposed person has zero mention in any mainstream source. None whatsoever. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> nableezy  - 11:16, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * note thatThis idiosyncratic definition of "mainstream" excludes the paper with the third largest circulation of all newspapers in Israel.E.M.Gregory (talk) 11:56, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * "Mainstream" may not be the correct word to use, but examples like News of the World should by now lead you to find better evidence of reliability than circulation. However, in this case the reliability of A7 doesn't need to be questioned, because all they did was quote the Algemeiner story.  Who cares?  Who has a Wikipedia article based 100% on a single interview? The guy did nothing except express an opinion.  Everyone has opinions. Zerotalk 12:58, 28 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment I'd like to point out that the recent "news articles" cited about Satri are actually about the alleged interview with him that was published by the Algemeiner Journal. They are not independent reports about him, and they do not confirm his existence. — MShabazz Talk/Stalk 11:30, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Correct, and that means we should apply WP:SINGLEEVENT. And since the event was just being interviewed, there is nothing here to support an article. Zerotalk 11:35, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * This isn't a single event. Satri is a young writer, which should be better reflected in the article, and these two publishings here and here are what inspired the subsequent published interview here and secondary news story in Arutz Sheva here. <span style="font-size:smaller;:'arial bold',;border:1px solid Black;"> Kamel Tebaast  16:43, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * "publishing" is not sufficient. Even publishing several articles in The New Yorker and several more in The Atlantic is insufficient, unless other publications consequently write about you as a writer.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:46, 28 July 2016 (UTC)
 * bdsguide.com obviously fails WP:RS, so all citations to that are going to be deleted if this article (amazingly) survives. Zerotalk 23:26, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Delete per nom - Fails WP:BIO, does not meet the additional criteria required to "merge the article into a broader article providing context" and fails WP:SINGLEEVENT. <small style="border: 1px solid;padding:1px 4px 1px 3px;white-space:nowrap"> Sean.hoyland  - talk 07:53, 1 August 2016 (UTC) <div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — UY Scuti <sup style="color:green; font-family:Times;">Talk  07:20, 2 August 2016 (UTC) <div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  MBisanz  talk 03:51, 10 August 2016 (UTC) Merge - I agree with E.M.Gregory's suggestion of moving this to Muslim supporters of Israel. Aust331 (talk) 08:18, 10 August 2016 (UTC)

Still delete. Since the original listing, there is still nothing at all to indicate notability of this person. All I can find is a dwindling number of random websites continuing to report the original story. This is a no-brainer delete. Zerotalk 11:23, 10 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment Since there is a recent tendency to confirm articles that egregiously fail WP:BIO, WP:NOTABILITY WP:EVENT, and a dozen other principles, it is evident that the concept of a plebiscite has trounced policy criteria. Practically, anything survives because you get arguments from policy balanced by opinions that just say, regardless of policy, keep. Perhaps the policy guidelines should be abolished. That is the only lesson to be drawn from this farcical refusal to apply clear criteria for inclusion or exclusion.Nishidani (talk) 11:42, 10 August 2016 (UTC)


 * Surprised to notice that this discussion is still open, I took another look. Here: "A Growing Trend: Brave Muslim Zionists,", a columnist puts this young man in context.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:32, 15 August 2016 (UTC)
 * I was prepared to thank you for finding a source about Satri, even if it is an opinion column, but then I saw it was published by Steven Emerson's Investigative Project on Terrorism. Now its credibility is about zero. Sorry, but I'm more likely to believe in an alien abduction than anything associated with Emerson, the man who repeatedly insisted the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing was perpetrated by Islamic terrorists from the Middle East. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 03:11, 16 August 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.