Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mai Griffin


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. One two three... 22:33, 23 May 2009 (UTC)

Mai Griffin

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Notability as an artist not established; famous subjects are not enough to establish significance, especially without third-party supporting references. Google search yields little. Article appears to be mostly promotional. JNW (talk) 16:19, 16 May 2009 (UTC) [] [] [] [] By the way if anything this article needs enlarging - I found the following on the University of Wales website:- "...The opportunities afforded me, as I accompanied him around the world, were many. As my first love is portrait painting, I never lacked for subjects. Hours spent working on uniforms, medals and ribbons stood me in good stead when, in Brunei, I was commissioned to paint many pictures of the Sultan Hassanal Bolkiah and his father, Sultan Omar Ali Saifuiddin, known as the Seri Begawan Sultan. His Majesty also wanted several of his ancestors depicted in oils, from old black & white photographs. This entailed research into the orders and medals they held and I was grateful for all the help I was given by St James’ Palace. Most of these official portraits are in the Lapau in Bandar Seri Begawan, the Palace of Government.
 * Please delete along with those saccharine images. I couldn't find a single reference to the artist on Google news, books or scholar. There does appear to be a moderately notable author of the same name. Pburka (talk) 16:39, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * It appears that the author and artist are one and the same. However there are no independent reviews of her book(s?) and the publisher looks suspiciously like a vanity press. Still fails to demonstrate notability as either a WP:AUTHOR or WP:ARTIST. Pburka (talk) 23:20, 17 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. The nature of portraiture (at least contemporary portraiture) is that having notable clients or subjects does not automatically mean notability for the artist. Having been hired by the royal family of Qatar means nothing. Reliable, third-party coverage needs to be convincing and in this case it is not (actually, in this case it's non-existent).  freshacconci  talk talk  16:40, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions.  — freshacconci  talk talk  16:44, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete as self-promotional spam by non-notable artist. Drawn Some (talk) 17:20, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete as WP:VSCA and failing to establish notability. Being a portrait painter for minor arab 'royalty' doesn't cut the mustard. Also, I see the author's article on her husband was deleted some time ago. Eddie.willers (talk) 18:13, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Please Keep Whether or not you consider the paintings saccharine or not is no justification to delete her as an artist who has been painting for over sixty years. As she is now nearly 78 - I hardly think she needs the work or the publicity - so I reject the claim or need for advertising - when I looked up the artist on www.google.co.uk - Which is only fair as she is an English artist - there were over four pages of links to her and her work. There were Three references to her writing on amazon.co.uk and one of her books at least was on googlebooks - so where are you guys looking? This 'non-notable' artist has been selling her work for over SIXTY years AND not only did she paint some "minor arab 'royalty'" in Qatar (that would be the current ruler and his father) - if you had bothered to follow the reference link to her website you might have noticed the queen, and the Sultan of Brunei's family - At one time her work hung in the Churchill Museum in Brunei and she was the first artist to paint portraits of the Brunei Royal family's ancestors to hang in the Parliament Building. I don't suppose that you have considered that if she had written this herself it would have had a lot more corroboratory material in it - like the article about her on the University of Wales website, for example - that none of you obviously found - or the FACT that she was apparently commissioned privately by the Sultan of Brunei's Uncle for a series of private portraits of the Sultan and his second wife that have never been shown in public... So what you people are apparently saying is that if you don't like the artwork, it isn't 'good enough' for wikipedia? Doesn't seem to be very fair to me... If I hadn't found her, I might agree - but as I did straight away - I am at a loss to understand all the vindictive venom in the posts and the desire just to delete her? By the way - I was also curious about references to third party corroboration - Portrait painters are normally commissioned - PRIVATELY - and when they are commissioned by very wealthy people - I would expect the people who buy the paintings invariably to expect privacy - so on the whole you are only ever going to see the artist's own publicity about their work - unless of course they are NOT commissioned paintings - in which case they don't have a buyer - in which case they have to exhibit them to sell them...  I am also interested to understand the reference to her husband being up there and deleted - what was he selling??

When Brunei celebrated complete independence in February 1984, Royalty and representatives from most countries in the world were entertained and one of the most important events scheduled was the opening of the Cultural Museum, by the Seri Begawan. I had been asked to produce three paintings for the final display. One was a portrait of the Seri Begawan at the age of 35, when the written Independence papers had been signed and there were two large group portraits – one showing the Sultan signing and the other depicting Sir Robert Scott signing on behalf of HM The Queen. All original reference photos were b/w so the paintings took many months to produce. One last, serious delay was the fact that nobody could remember the colour of the elaborate fabric worn by the Sultan. I was eventually informed that he could not remember either, so I asked what colour he would like it to be painted and at last, with the deadline fast approaching, I was told to make it, “blue with gold thread”…!

My husband had retired from the army before taking up the appointment in Brunei and after his project was completed, in August 1984, he accepted another post in Qatar.

Having become so established, it was heartbreaking to contemplate starting again, but an introductory letter (for my husband) written by Viscount Lord Slim, was kind enough to mention me and what I had achieved. It was therefore not long before I was inundated with work. A lengthy TV interview on “Good Evening Qatar” helped and so for the next five years, while in the Middle East, I painted portraits and local scenes.

After being invited to paint a portrait of H.M. The Queen for the British Embassy, we were invited to a private reception at the Embassy during the visit of Prince Charles and Princess Diana, to whom we were presented. There were fewer than a hundred guests and they mingled amongst us informally. They were both charming and completely relaxed. Diana told me that the weather when they flew out of England was “the pits” … []

—Preceding unsigned comment added by Otteney (talk • contribs) 20:00, 16 May 2009 (UTC)
 * So what you people are apparently saying is that if you don't like the artwork, it isn't 'good enough' for wikipedia? Doesn't seem to be very fair to me - My opinion of the quality of her art is irrelevant to my vote to delete. My vote is based on WP:Notability guidelines.
 * There were Three references to her writing on amazon.co.uk and one of her books at least was on googlebooks - Mai Griffin the artist and Mai Griffin the author appear to be two unrelated individuals, as I noted in my vote above.
 * ... like the article about her on the University of Wales website, for example - that none of you obviously found... - I suggest you read that article carefully. It appears to be written by Mai Griffin herself.
 * ...or the FACT that she was apparently commissioned privately by the Sultan of Brunei's Uncle... - is this a fact, or a claim? You don't even sound convinced it's a fact, since you say "apparently".
 * ...when I looked up the artist on www.google.co.uk... - When I search for Mai Griffin on www.google.co.uk the links it returns are, in this order, the artist's own website, a link to the author, this Wikipedia article, the artist's personal profile on a photography website, another link to the author, a memorial to a deceased Mai Griffin, the autobiographical University of Wales alumni article and a mirror of the Wikipedia article.
 * If she were notable, there would be something written about her by independent sources. As it stands, all the information I can find about Mai Griffin (the artist) appears to be written by Mai Griffin. These, obviously, cannot be considered to be reliable sources. If you can provide some reliable, independent sources to verify the claims that she's been commissioned to paint royalty and that her work has been displayed in major galleries, I'll reconsider my vote. Pburka (talk) 20:49, 16 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments:


 * The issue I'm seeing here, as far as notability is concerned, is whether a string of minor achievements can add up to one noteworthy one. I expect the consensus will be that they don't. By minor achievements, I'm thinking of "hanging in the the Churchill Museum in Brunei", painting minor royalty, hanging in "Embassies and Stately Homes". The portrait of QEII is probably the most noteworthy, although it's diminished by her having been chosen as a local artist, and having worked from a photograph, which makes it something less than an official portrait.


 * Also:


 * - "has been selling her work for over SIXTY years" - non-noteworthy activities don't ripen with age and become notable over time.


 * - "Three references to her writing on amazon.co.uk and one of her books at least was on googlebooks". Her books are published by "UP Publications", they have published 5 books, 4 of them are by Mai Griffin, right away that brings up notability issues.


 * - A final issue is that making money selling commercial portrait paintings is not as noteworthy as making money selling works of art. That's an issue with the art world, not with wikipedia. Hairhorn (talk) 21:06, 16 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete. Painting members of the Sultan of Brunei's family and participating in an exhibition to celebrate Brunei's independence aren't notable achievements per WP:CREATIVE. Painting a portrait of her majesty the queen is an honour bestowed on significant artists such as Lucien Freud and Rolf Harris, but Ms Griffin didn't paint her portrait, she copied from a photo. Anyone can do that. No significant coverage in reliable third-party sources per WP:N.--Ethicoaestheticist (talk) 23:27, 16 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Comments:

[]"After a successful career as a professional international artist ([]).... ...Mai has returned to her first and all pervasive love of writing... ...Mai has never stopped writing whether her own work or ghosting and editing for others. Deadly Shades of Grey is the first of the Grey series and is followed by A Poisonous Shade of Grey. Grey Masque of Death is due to be released via U P Publications Ltd, Spring 2009 Mai now lives in Spain and in between her painting commissions and art exhibitions is hoping to release the fourth of the Grey series before Christmas 2009" Artist and Author = the same person - though I take your point about the publisher.

Extract from the Qatar Gulf Times – OK it is a scanned copy from the ‘portrait’ page of her own website – but in fairness, it is from the 80’s so will never ever be online apart from this - “Admiring the British embassy’s latest embellishment in its reception area are Ambassador Julian Walker and Artist Mai Griffin… The oil painting is based on photographs taken during the state visit of HH the Emir, Sheikh Khalifa bin Hamad al-Thani to Britain last year.” So you were right about it being from photos  - but the painting WAS an Official Royal Portrait commissioned by the British Embassy. The article continues “Already noted in Doha for her portrait paintings, Mrs Griffin was approached by the Embassy’s administration officer Geoffery Fairhurst and asked to paint a suitable picture”… The item finishes with “Mr Walker, who received the painting on the Embassy’s behalf, said “We are delighted to have this fine example of Mrs Griffin’s work…”

There is another picture of an extract from the Gulf Times that all but illegible on the site – but it clearly shows paintings which feature elsewhere as hers and is titled “A portrait painter in perspective” and the bio explanation underneath states that it led to a feature documentary about Mai on Qatar TV – which I assume is verifiable. There is also a photo of one of the main rooms in the Brunei Palace of Government (the Brunei equivalent of the Palace of Westminster) showing five of her ‘retrospective portraits of earlier Sultans’

There is a further pictured item from the Khaleej Times by Raheel Raza Women as imams (was with Khaleej Times in UAE - now based in Canada) called “Mai’s Many Moods” [] The Royal Regalia Building,  Brunei - Scroll down to 4. Constitutional History Gallery and it is the same painting on the left re Independence that appears in the Portraits page on her website as having been commissioned by the Brunei Museums - Any way - I take all your points - but it seems a shame to can a woman artist who achieved quite a lot in the eighties, getting commissions off prestigious clients in two notably Moslem regimes... so my vote is still to *keep even though I can see I am heavily outgunned - at least the research has been fun Otteney (talk) 18:59, 17 May 2009 (UTC)Otte
 * Delete Seems non-encyclopedic, or noteworthy...Modernist (talk) 13:13, 18 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - painting not to my taste (but irrelevant to the debate). Notability as painter not established by sources in articel (or revealed above). Similarly not established as notable author. Not being notable in several endeavors does not establish notability. Bigdaddy1981 (talk) 20:50, 19 May 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete - notability has not been established with any reliable sources covering her or her work whether it be her painting or her writing, nor do I see any indication that the artists meets any of the criteria set out in WP:CREATIVE. -- Whpq (talk) 20:52, 19 May 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. It doesn't help that most works seem painted from photos. Johnbod (talk) 09:32, 23 May 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.