Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Major achievements in hockey by nation


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus.  Sandstein  17:59, 10 December 2015 (UTC)

Major achievements in hockey by nation

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Very much a WP:NOR/WP:SYNTH violation. This sets forth the proposition that any sport with "hockey" in the name is comparable (except when it isn't), as well as that the IOC is the guarantor of what qualifies as athletic achievement or not. It also equates "major achievements" by nation through the respective national teams' performance at IOC-sanctioned world championships, completely a SYNTH violation. No sources discussing the concept as a concept.   Ravenswing   21:26, 2 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Withdrawing the AfD. The changes ThiagoSimoes has made to restrict this table to field hockey removes my objections.   Ravenswing   07:41, 5 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sports-related deletion discussions. North America1000 23:35, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ice hockey-related deletion discussions. North America1000 23:35, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Lists-related deletion discussions. North America1000 23:36, 2 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I am the creator of the article and I received a notification stating that this article is being considered for deletion. First and foremost, it is important to notice that hockey is an umbrella term. The current version of the article about hockey in wikipedia clearly shows that by listing different versions and variations. As a way to streamline the scope of the article, I focused on the variations that are governed by international federations currently recognized by the International Olympic Committee. While it is not "the guarantor" of athletic achievement, it is widely respected and easily recognizable by a huge number of people around the planet.


 * Second, the discussion about the sports being comparable or not must be taken further to other pages in order to achieve consensus for what variations should be included on the hockey article. Besides, the article about roller hockey states that "Roller Hockey is played on both Quad skates and Inline skates, have different rules and equipment, and involve different types of skating but share the category and name of Roller Hockey." If we are to believe that the sports are not comparable, the very simple concept of roller hockey endorsed by the Fédération Internationale de Roller Sports (quad and inline under the roller hockey label) would be challenged.


 * Third, this is part of a series of articles about achievements in sports, and based on what I previously explained, the content lists what it is supposed to list. Since there are many variations of the sport listed here, maybe changing the title of the article to "Major achievements in hockey sports by nation" could remedy potential complains, if there is one at all


 * Finally, all of the results of the tournaments listed on the article are widely available online. I also provided links to every article containing the results of the tournaments, and have added external links and references that could be checked for confirmation. This is no original research since the results were previously available in Wikipedia and online. There is also no new conclusion being reached; if we are to believe there is one thanks to the ranking system, then all of the ranked medal tables within Wikipedia must be deleted from all of the articles containing one.


 * The main purpose of the article is to inform and help improving popularity of different hockey sports, providing one easily accessible source of information linking together different articles while, at the same time, displaying a list of countries that performed well enough to reach a medal result in a major tournament in hockey. At this time, there are eight other articles that do the same thing for gymnastics, football, volleyball and other sports. So far, the content of the articles have never been challenged by the community.


 * Nevertheless, I would like to know from other users what they think about the article and how it can be improved in any form. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 00:14, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Gymnastics is ONE sport, with ONE recognized international sanctioning body. Association football is ONE sport, with ONE recognized international sanctioning body.  Volleyball is ONE sport, with ONE recognized international sanctioning body.  A table like this for bandy (say) and bandy alone would meet appropriate standards.  This portmanteau of several completely different sports does not.   Ravenswing   02:25, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * You should know that gymnastics is not governed by only one body: there is FIG, and there is also FISAF, as well as IFAAG and IRV. Football has FIFA, FIFUSA/AMF and WMF. If you have problems with many different sports being added to the list, then you should be discussing what sports should be added to the article about hockey in the very first place. At first you were complaining about the IOC being used as the only source of guaranteeing athletic achievement, but now you are trying to rely on one single definition of a sport. So, what sport hockey is? If you assume hockey is ONE sport, then we should consider field hockey (and its indoor variant) the only existing version of the sport, since it is governed by the International Hockey Federation. If we consider hockey to be any sport with the word hockey within its title, then ice hockey and roller hockey also qualify. If we take the definitions used in Wikipedia's own article about hockey, then the other sports listed there could also be considered hockey.
 * In order to comply with the content of the hockey article, I decided to add bandy and floorball as well. But if you believe this is a source of confusion for readers, I agree about removing bandy and floorball from the list, keeping the other versions of hockey that are titled hockey in the list. If you think it should receive a new title, something like "Major achievements in hockey sports", or "hockey variations", or anything else, I would also agree to change the title. If this makes the article more streamlined in your opinion, I see no problem in doing that. However, I strongly believe this implies some sort of "cleanup" would be needed in the main hockey article. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 03:14, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * If you genuinely believe that authorities that claim to govern indoor soccer or futsal are comparable to FIFA's sway over association football (and that they constitute the same sports as association football), or that the Finnish sport of "aesthetic group gymnastics" or competitive aerobics are what people have in mind when they discuss world-class gymnastics ... well, 'nuff said.   Ravenswing   11:40, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * You mentioned that the IOC cannot be considered the only source for defining what athletic achievement is. I mentioned that there are different bodies governing the sports, so that FIFA cannot be considered the only source for athletic achievement in football, or FIG in gymnastics. Now, I am supposed to believe it is absurd to expect that. This completely contradicts your own arguments. FIFA considers the tournaments organized by BSWW (the governing body of beach soccer prior to FIFA officially recognizing it) as official tournaments. In 1989 there was a meeting to discuss whether the tournaments organized by FIFUSA could be considered official tournaments or not. Trampoline World Championships were organized by FIT before 1999 and currently the FIG considers the events to be official events. Historically, variations of a sport are eventually accepted by the official federations. Of course this cannot be taken for granted, but there is enough evidence in history.
 * Besides, there is a reason why aesthetic group gymnastics was not added to my list in gymnastics, and aerobics is an official discipline recognized by FIG. I did not create the lists out of the blue. Sensible choices have been made and the content of all the lists have been widely accepted by the communities. This is the only list that is challenged by a group of fans of one variation of the sport. What you are trying to do is impose a single point of view as the truth, since this discussion was added to an Ice Hockey related group. It seems to me that you and the people who believe Ice Hockey is the true hockey consider it absurd to mention other variations as part of the same sport. What you fail to understand is that it completely contradicts what the Wikipedia article about hockey says at all. What I gather from all the comments here is immense bias towards the other variations. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 15:03, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * A minor comment - I don't believe we are defending "true hockey" as ice hockey, I think we are trying to point out that on a nationally competitive level, there is no crossover from field hockey, ice hockey, bandy, floorball, ect. The wikipedia article on hockey is far more about the origins and evolution of the related sports (and how the term "hockey" might be used colloquially) and there are no other articles (or sources that I have found) relating the sub-types of hockey, including their respective international competitions. Yosemiter (talk) 15:40, 3 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete:This is not the place for this. There is nothing on the page that implies that these sports results are compared in encyclopedias or media so whether the results are comparable is trivial at best. Ranked medal tables are provided by the IIHF and FIH (for example), so they are appropriate on their respective pages and is not relevant to whether this page is valid or not.18abruce (talk) 00:54, 3 December 2015 (UTC)


 * If the main source of problem is the ranked system, listing the countries in alphabetical order would devoid the list of any possible accusation of violation of guidelines. Besides, the scope of the list should not be restricted to discussions in North America, or Ice Hockey, since the sport is merely one of the variations listed. Administrators must be aware that conclusions reached here could potentially be biased since the discussion was not taken to a bigger group of people who could be interested on the article. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 01:08, 3 December 2015 (UTC)


 * No that is not the main source of the problem. Ranked or not, find something encyclopedic or media related that compares these sports and then you have may have a reason for the article to exist.18abruce (talk) 05:10, 3 December 2015 (UTC)


 * What you are (and everybody else is) saying is that one should not assume that the article hockey could be taken as a guideline or starting point. It baffles me that the fact that the sports are grouped together in the main article on Wikipedia about the sport should not be seen as enough evidence for the list to be made the way it was. If the countries are not ranked, then the sports are not being compared; they are merely being listed together under the same group, provided there is a precendent reason in the hockey article. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 06:12, 3 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Countries are now listed in alphabetical order. The list is now comparable to List of iOS devices, since no conclusions can be reached and it merely lists information that is linked to other pages on Wikipedia. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 01:36, 3 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete. People don't agglomerate the different forms of hockey together, any more than they do, say, baseball and softball. "Major achievements" also doesn't quite work either. One possible solution (stress on possible), as mentioned above, is to split this up into the individual sports. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:58, 3 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete: per nom. I find this page (and the entire series that mentioned about the other sports Template:Achievementsinsports) confusing and actually less informative than the much more specific articles that already exist such as List of IIHF World Championship medalists. Other things about the pages that I find irritating is the links to specific countries or general sports pages. You list only their top achievements in each internationally recognized competition but no links the countries specific team or organizations. So if I wanted to check when Great Britain last won Gold in field hockey in the Olympics (or how many times), I would have to sort through several links just to get there, in which case Google would be faster, defeating what seems to be the intended purpose of a list such as this. (Also Field hockey at the Summer Olympics already exists and tells me everything I wanted to know about said subject) Yosemiter (talk) 04:30, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * The general purpose of the lists is to inform the readers about the highest achievements a given nation achieved at one specific tournament or competition. It is impossible to link to specific teams since either 1) Wikipedia does not have a page for (most, if any) of them (such as in Gymnastics) or 2) there are different pages for men's and women's teams, making it impossible to provide one single link (field hockey, ice hockey and so on). Besides, the articles are supposed to provide an overall look about the performances of the countries. If people want specific information, they can look for it in the corresponding articles. Complaining about such thing is like saying people should be able to see where iPhones are being sold in their hometown when reading about differences between iPhone versions. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 04:43, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Then you misunderstand what I meant. What I was asking for is more like searching a list of iPhones for when the iPhone 3GS was released and what operating system it has. This list is more like a general list of phone manufacturers who once sold a top selling phone at some point in time. My point is that the list is a compilation of semi-related and better formed lists. This all just seems too vague and seems to be WP:SYNTH since is an extrapolation assuming that a country's competitive various national hockey teams are somehow related.
 * I understand your point now, but I am still genuinely surprised that the opinions here entirely contradict what is listed on the article hockey. It looks like the article tries too hard to define what hockey might be, but at this point of the discussion here there are far too many people who are only able to state what hockey is not. What I understand from all the comments is that hockey is not something that can be assumed as many different sports under the same name, but this is precisely what the main article is about. Should it be deleted then to avoid confusion in the future as well? -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 06:12, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * While the separated and moved page is certainly better more informative since it is now only about field hockey this still seems a bit WP:INDISCRIMINATE in format. It seems like (along with many of these articles) that could could be merged or incorporated into an improved version of International field hockey tournaments. "Major achievements" just seems to be vague and arbitrary in its current format. Having total medal counts is more typical on most individual lists (separating gold/silver/bronze); as it appears now, winning one gold and no other medals is comparable to winning one gold and ten other medals (in the history of the same tournament). If both this (improved) table and the info already in the list of field hockey tournaments were merged I think it would give a more thorough understanding of what is being listed. The result would be one page containing links to all tournaments and how generally successful its participants were over time. Yosemiter (talk) 18:23, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I like this idea. The list if fairly small when compared to other sports (especially gymnastics, judo and swimming), so merging it with international field hockey tournaments is a great solution.
 * My original intention was to create a list for gymnastics, since finding information about specific tournaments is somewhat confusing and time consuming for "non fans" of the sport. There are many of them in five different disciplines, and right now 60 different countries got a medal of any kind. It worked quite well for gymnastics, and swimming as well. But I guess that when it comes to team sports, there are few different federations that organize many major tournaments to the point of making it confusing for people to follow the action (FIVB is the only one that comes to mind, and maybe FIFA). -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 05:51, 5 December 2015 (UTC)


 * One more change to the original article. I deleted the entries for Bandy and Floorball. If people still complain about it and think it should be deleted, just go ahead and delete the whole article. I do not plan to create a new article for any variation of this sport ever again. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 04:43, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * You are, of course, the best judge of your time, as well as of the work it suits you to do on Wikipedia. I admit to being unclear as to its relevance to this deletion discussion.   Ravenswing   11:31, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I think you will find that for the most part the hockey article is the only article that is really needed for hockey, the sub-types are the extension of that topic individually. There probably wouldn't be much sense on combined articles for all the topics other than the parent hockey article. -DJSasso (talk) 14:05, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * It has been suggested that the content of the article should be split between different articles. I said I do not plan to do that. How is this not relevant to the discussion? -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 15:03, 3 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete What I think the author is missing is that actual articles or books (ie sources) have to have been written that talk about the combination of those sports wins. Individually they have most definitely been written about, but I doubt you will find sources that discuss the fact that X country won 20 ice hockey championships, 10 field hockey championships and 5 bandy championships etc. -DJSasso (talk) 14:04, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I am ok with this now that it is about a single sport. -DJSasso (talk) 13:41, 7 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Thank you for your reconsideration, but please do observe that renaming the article during the AfD discussion as you did is contrary to WP:EDITATAFD. Thank you, Sam Sailor Talk! 00:14, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * It happens regularly and in this case would actually have been worse to not do it. See WP:IAR. -DJSasso (talk) 14:52, 10 December 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete. I get what the article creator was trying to do, but this is still a WP:SYNTH problem. Primarily, The fact that various sports contain the word "hockey" does not create a significant link that justifies a list such as this.  It would be like building a list of nations that have won at Soccer, Gridiron football, Aussie Rules Football and Rugby.  They are all codes or descendants of football, but not really related when discussing international achievement.    So for that reason, I don't see the value of ranking countries by highest achievement in various random sports.   Personally, however, I personally would be more supportive of a list that ranks number of championships in events sanctioned by an individual governing body.  So, for instance, IIHF sanctioned events. Resolute 17:28, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep revised version, per my comment above, specifically, containing the list to titles by a single governing body. Resolute 17:26, 4 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Contrary to what I originally planned, I decided to edit the article once again and now it only covers field hockey and indoor field hockey, two variations officially recognized and governed by the International Hockey Federation. Please ignore the previous comments and kindly state if you think the current article could be kept. Also, if people decide to keep the article, can it be moved to "Major achievements in field hockey by nation"? -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 19:59, 3 December 2015 (UTC)
 * Just an addendum: I followed the suggestion about splitting the content of the article and now there is a version for roller hockey. I will not create versions for ice hockey, bandy or floorball, since there are only two major world tournaments between national teams for ice hockey, one for bandy and two for floorball. I hope the articles now follow all the proposed guidelines. -- ThiagoSimoes (talk) 19:59, 3 December 2015 (UTC)


 * If would reconsider, this discussion may be closed under SK#1. Sam Sailor Talk! 00:14, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I have no objection to the article as it is now.18abruce (talk) 00:37, 10 December 2015 (UTC)
 * I change my vote to Merge with International field hockey tournaments to make a complete article (this table could be considered an overall results summary of the list there). Otherwise, I have no objection to its existence as is (possibly with improvements (such as total medal counts for gold, silver, and bronze since even a bronze medal from a country that has also one a gold at one point could be considered a "major achievement"). Yosemiter (talk) 02:49, 10 December 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.