Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Makhtumkala


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Going with the keeps to allow for them to improve, expand and grow this article with the "exhaustive" citations that supposedly exist.

Also, in the future, please keep it civil in deletion discussions.

Thanks everyone for participating. Unhappy with this decision? If one wishes to renominate this article with another policy-based rationale, they are able to do so. I will defer to other administrators to review it. I will not re-review my decision. Happy holidays. Missvain (talk) 00:28, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

Makhtumkala

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Not finding anything (legal recognition or GNG) to establish notability aside from the single travel guide entry that's cited. Coordinates may be off, since there doesn't seem to be a village at this location. –dlthewave ☎ 03:29, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. –dlthewave ☎ 03:29, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Turkmenistan-related deletion discussions. –dlthewave ☎ 03:29, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Strong keep - The travel guide is by Paul Brummell, former British Ambassador to Turkmenistan and that he found the village worthy of an entire paragraph is an indicator of notability in itself.Sources concerning Turkmenistan are in Russian/Turkmen and shall not be expected to be found online. This is a result of systemic bias as well as censorship practices of Govt. of Turkmenistan — for example, their National Library does not have any presence in internet! It is for the former reasons, that we presume populated, legally recognized places to be notable, even if their population is very low. I do not assume the nominator to be proficient in Turkmen to know where to search for "legal recognition." [Turkmen Legal Code features an apparently exhaustive list of villages but presidential/parliamentary resolutions and decrees often mention other villages.] These are the coordinates of Makhtumkala (var. Magtymgala) and I cannot be held responsible for a (rogue) bot. This news-article from Turkmenistan Government discusses the settlement and the mausoleum in significant detail. I am yet to start listing offline sources including archaeological reports on the mausoleum - stop wasting my time.TrangaBellam (talk) 06:23, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * , I'm confused by your "stop wasting my time" comment. If you created an article based on a single travel guide source, then surely you either had sufficient sourcing on hand to establish notability (3 reliable sources is a general rule of thumb) or planned to add it in the near future. How is anyone wasting your time by asking you to do something that you were going to do anyway? Were you expecting others to do this work for you? –dlthewave ☎ 17:14, 7 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Further,andTrangaBellam (talk) 12:39, 5 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Comment, ill-feeling could be avoided if you'd incubated this article in draft-space until after you'd finished listing the offline sources. It is reasonable for someone to bring it here if they consider it inadequately supported, and if they cannot find sources themselves, even if there are political reasons why those sources are hard to find. I'd therefore suggest draftifying until you and/or others have completed the work. Elemimele (talk) 10:50, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * and if they cannot find sources themselves - WP:CIR. The editor has been nominating tens of articles from different geographical regions in the belief that they violate GEOLAND - it is impossible that someone will be competent enough to ascertain legal status of territories in so many countries and such a bull-in-the-chinashop approach is only indicative of hubris. TrangaBellam (talk) 11:06, 5 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete - TrangaBellam has identified only passing mentions of the location. What is required for a WP:GEOLAND#1 pass is evidence of legal recognition, but no evidence of that is provided here. Similarly a pass under WP:GNG requires significant coverage in multiple sources, but again there is no such evidence provided here.
 * There seems to be a misunderstanding here that any populated place is notable: this is not the case. Wikipedia is not a gazetteer, it does not include articles on localities with no legal recognition and about which no encyclopaedic article can be written. The entire point of what we are trying to achieve here is that we are supposed to be writing encyclopaedia articles, not directory listings. FOARP (talk) 19:19, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I had linked to a pdf about legally recognized places. Did read that or do you expect me to read it for you? Maybe, teach you Turkmen language? You wish to claim that the Government of Turkmenistan is ignorant about its own villages when it describes the settlement and the mausoleum in five paragraphs? Or, that the Turkmenistan Academy of Sciences is similarly ignorant? Wow. TrangaBellam (talk) 19:35, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Wow indeed. You posted a 404 link (to openstreetmap.org . . . ). Maybe lessons in HTML and Wikipedia's standards for reliable sources are called for? Or since the Turkmenistan govt website does not mention the topic of the article by name at all, a lesson in reading? And since this is a government website pitched to tourists, a lesson in what an independent source actually is? Followed by a lesson in how to discuss things on the internet? FOARP (talk) 20:26, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Does this link work for you? Since you have some inability in reading English, let me quote the passage:It might be new knowledge to you that there is no independent media or scholarship in Turkmenistan. Almost everything that you will ever have on post-independent Turkmenistan will be either sourced to Turkmenistan Government and scholars affiliated to them (either directly or via various missions) or travel guides by former diplomats. Concerning politics etc, you have some Moscow based specialists. Of the few western scholars—Victoria Clement, Slavomir Horak et al—who specialize on the country, none has been allowed access to the State Archives despite intense diplomatic efforts and that says something. Now, it is your call whether you want to start nuking 80% content belonging to Wikiproject Turkmenistan or apply common sense. TrangaBellam (talk) 20:33, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * A search for МАГТЫМГАЛА in that document brings up no hits, so we're still where we were. Quoting from a tourist website (i.e., essentially an advert) does not substantiate notability. I have no problem with deleting poorly-sourced non-notable Geostubs en masse, regardless of what country they apply to. User:FOARP (talk) 20:46, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * I cannot speak a lick of Turkmen, but when I search for Magtymg-, I get multiple hits. Google Translate's limited Turkmen-English translation capabilities mention that it's next to words like village. I'm not sure if this is what it refers to, but I can't tell what else it could be. But it does make me wonder why the article name is Makhtumkala instead of Magtymgala. Dege31 (talk) 19:45, 26 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Search better. Till now, you were stating that the govt website does not mention the topic of the article by name at all. Now you are proposing that the government source describing the village and associated mausoleum be discounted because it is an advertisement?
 * How did you ascertain it to be a tourist website? The website is of "Altyn Asyr", mouthpiece of the National news agency. TrangaBellam (talk)
 * You want more "legal recognition?"Even more? TrangaBellam (talk) 20:52, 5 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Page FOARP. TrangaBellam (talk) 15:00, 6 December 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein   08:37, 13 December 2021 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: One more round, please. It would be great to have some fresh eyes on this that aren't involved in the article itself.

Also please keep it civil. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 16:41, 21 December 2021 (UTC)


 * Draftify The article is a stub. The notability is questionable, and were it not for WP:NPLACE's option for legal recognition there would be little else showing significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. The   Apologies to  but that's how it appears to my eyes.  Suggest moving it to Draft space where improvements can be made, including providing a robust source for the legal registration, and hopefully some further interesting facts about the place and its history, economy, transport, wildlife and people, all backed up by lovely, lovely, cited sources. Chumpih. (talk) 21:04, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * , independent of the subject? If you are pointing at non-govt. sources, you won't get any: media is controlled by Turkmen Government directly (or indirectly). Robust sources: if Government publications mentioning it as a village are not robust, I don't know what it is. TrangaBellam (talk) 21:09, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, as independent as possible. Once in Draft space this can be brought up to spec, then go through appropriate review via AfC.  Chumpih. (talk) 21:14, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * You need to give definite arguments; not handwave at policies and claim violations. What is as independent as possible? What are the specs? I have cited at-least three sources which devote more than a paragraph to the village and the mausoleum - why do you feel that they fail to establish WP:N? Draftspace is not a IDONTLIKEIT junkyard. TrangaBellam (talk) 21:17, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * My suggestion is made. Chumpih. (talk) 21:27, 21 December 2021 (UTC)
 * OK, how about going for WP:THREE. Please reply with the very best 3 sources, all working, non 404ing. Optionally provide them via a translation service.  Please don't copy-and-paste the contents.  Just 3 URLs that satisfy WP:GNG for Makhtumkala.  Chumpih. (talk) 16:06, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * GEOLAND do not require a GNG pass. That being said, consult the article for the sources? TrangaBellam (talk) 16:19, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Indeed, per WP:NPLACE there needs to be legal recognition or satisfy WP:GNG. What source shows legal recognition?  Chumpih. (talk) 16:57, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It is your claim that sources authored by Turkmenistan government noting it to be a village in their publications do not make it one? Or is it your claim that individual villages are not recognized in Turkmenistan? Or is it your claim that I am yet to provide any source from Turkmenistan Government noting the subject to be a village?
 * As I wrote at the outset, Turkmen Legal Code features an apparently exhaustive list of villages but presidential/parliamentary resolutions and decrees often mention other villages. They haven't conducted a census since '95 - so you won't be getting fancy tables etc. TrangaBellam (talk) 17:40, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * It's probably the first. And therein lies the issue.  The fact that something gets a mention in some decree or brochure might not necessarily give it legal recognition.  The slippery slope argument would cry: "every property address mentioned in every court case could end up with its own wiki page".  There has to be some threshold - some definition for legal recognition.  Do we know of any?
 * That said, the additional citations that today appeared in the article help with WP:GNG. Chumpih. (talk) 18:21, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Good luck convincing others. The sources were already cited in this AfD but whatever. Please have the last word. TrangaBellam (talk) 18:24, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. I am convinced by the arguments and sourcing that it is a recognised settlement and therefore passes WP:GEOLAND. -- Necrothesp (talk) 08:53, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * For the sake of clarity, which particular source showing legal recognition did you find convincing? Chumpih. (talk) 12:56, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Those cited above by TrangaBellam. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:27, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * That was not a clarifying answer. Chumpih. (talk) Chumpih. (talk) 14:35, 22 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Clearly it was. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:08, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * "Oh no it wasn't..." Chumpih. (talk) 11:59, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep - adequately sourced as it stands - no need for draftification. There is no ban on stubs - articles don't have to start as, umm, Start class. I must also comment that in my view the treatment of TrangaBellam above, who there is no reason to doubt is a GF editor, is coming close to bullying. Ingratis (talk) 17:09, 22 December 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.