Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Male Unbifurcated Garment


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was delete. --Ezeu 17:55, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Male Unbifurcated Garment
Unbifurcated garments for chaps exist alright, but with only 441 ghits I would say that this term is a neologism and likely original research. Just zis Guy you know? 20:46, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Correction - it's more than a Million hits, not just the 441 you erroneously claim - see below for details. Dr1819 22:39, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Google "male unbifurcated garment", now 444 results - with Wiki mirrors heading the list. As stated, a real conept, but a neologistic term for it.  If you acn find out what the usual term is, feel free to move the article.  And add verifiable refrerences to reliable sources, of course, since you appear on the Talk page to be claiming it's original research. Just zis Guy you know? 09:16, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete as neologism. Beno1000 20:47, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Response - it's not neologism. It's an acronym.  The two are non-sequitors.  Expore the acronym difference via Wiki! Dr1819 19:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete as neo, OR, and really silly way to say Kilt. - Fan1967 20:55, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Response - A kilt is but one form of a MUG, and there are more than 70 different clearly distinct types currently worn by men throughout the world. See here' for pictoral and text examples of dozens of others.  [[User:Dr1819|Dr1819] 19:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Well, they could be considered separate from kilts as they are not necessarily formal Scottish attire. — Cuivi é  nen  ( talk • contribs ) , Friday, 12 May 2006 @ 21:50 UTC
 * Then say "male skirt" or "robe" as appropriate. Fan1967 21:55, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * It's a man dress, baby. - Nunh-huh 01:13, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Dresses and skirts are two different garments. Besides, they're Western terms.  Wiki is global, and there are more than 70 different terms which specifically describe various countries' MUGs.  You gotta admit, the acronym MUG is a lot easier than spelling out "skirt-like garment" or "dress-like garment" when describing fustanella or thobes.  And calling a fustanalla a "skirt" is an insult to the Turkish!  The acronym MUG was developed in the 90s to accurately describe all unbifurcated garments worn by males, hence, male unbifurcated garment, or as it's commenly used, "MUG.'
 * For values of commonly which may encompass hardly at all :-) Just zis Guy you know? 17:46, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete per nom. *Exeunt* Ganymead | Dialogue? 21:14, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Response - MUGs include more than 70 different known styles/designs. Limiting it to "male skirt or robe" is like calling a Toyota Tacoma a "vehicle," instead of the more specialized "truck."  Dr1819 19:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Weak Delete. Neologism, but this may still be the most common word for an uncommon (but notable) phenomenon. — Cuivi é  nen  ( talk • contribs ) , Friday, 12 May 2006 @ 21:50 UTC
 * Weak Keep as per above. Seems like a needed concept. Maybe a disambig to kilt, sarong, etc? Guinnog 22:36, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Response Thanks! Nice to see some support around here!


 * Delete, male gender panic doesn't prove this concept is useful. Catamorphism 22:49, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * delete: silliness. Thumbelina 23:19, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Response To the more than a third of the males on this planet who wear MUGs on a regular basis it's not "silliness."  It's simply what we choose to wear.  Dr1819 19:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete - I feel dumber for having read that article. BigDT 02:49, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Response - How is it that you came to read it if you weren't searching for it? Dr1819 17:00, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete per Catamorphism. Grand  master  ka  04:25, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Redirect to kilt. Stifle (talk) 15:15, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 *  Keep! It's a common term used throughout the fashion freedom movement. Dr1819 17:04, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Which kind of begs the question as to whether Fashion Freedom is, in fact, a notable movement. Fan1967 19:50, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Response Go to the Fashion Freedom entry and follow the links - you'll see that it's certainly a notable movement. At least 70 Million people worldwide actively participate in pushing fashion trends towards freedom.  That's notable.  Regardless, those in the fashion freedom movement comprise but a small fraction of men who wear MUGs.  Approximately 40% of all men around the world wear "MUGs," and calling them "skirts" when they're not skirts, or "kilts" when they're not kilts is inappropriate.  MUGs is an acronym, one that's been in use for decades.  Although the term may not have the exposure of "Hip-Hop," it's been in use longer!  Dr1819 19:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment How long a term has been used is less relevant than how commonly it is used, and on that score this one fails pretty miserably. Fan1967 17:08, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Response Claiming that something "fails pretty miserably" does not make it so. Please explain how it "fails miserably."  In the meantime, please read my comments, below.  Dr1819 17:31, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Response Note the 441 Google hits cited in the nomination. Care to try a search for "hip-hop" and compare results? Fan1967 17:35, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Response' Google counts the number of Internet hits, which for "hip-hop" was about 205 Million.  Compare that to the 1.4 Billion men who wear MUGs throughout the world, and the many Millions of Google hits given above for MUGs, which is very significant.  Since your Googling skills are obviously rusty, try this:  Add an "s" to the end, as in "male unbifurcated garments," you get 8,710 hits.  Using "MUG" and "skirt" yields 650,000 hits, with the plural of MUGS and skirt yielding 347,000 hits.  And "MUGs" and "kilt" yielded 174,000 hits.  So again, what's your point about some "441 Google hits?"  My question to you (still unanswered, I see), is "hard did you work to find the right combination that yielded the least amount of hits?"  Dr1819 19:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Except that there is no real evidence that they call them "male unbifurcated garments". Which is the point. Just zis Guy you know? 23:37, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * ...and looking through the results finds an awful lot of sites that sell clothing as well as drinking utensils for beer or coffee. Fan1967 00:03, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment While using the number of Google hits to judge a topic's relevance has some slight value, it's a very poor indicator for one simple reason - it measures the frequency that a particular topic has on the web, not the quality or relevance of that information to human society.  For example, "nuclear power" generated just 43.8 Million hits, less than 1/4 that of hip-hop, but if hip-hop died tomorrow, we'd be none the worse for wear.  By contrast, if nuclear power died tomorrow, nearly a billion people would be without air conditioning, refridgeration, and the other necessities we need to survive.  Dr1819 19:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * The bottom line is that in it's various combinations there are more than a Million Google hits for MUGs. Again, and I challenge someone to refute me, but I think that's pretty darn significant!  Dr1819 19:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete - Lots of people use these garments (although I suspect that some of them are actually Unisex Unbifurcated Garments) but not very many people use this term. FreplySpang (talk) 17:57, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Response As a graduate student of gender studies you should know full well that men wearing MUGs has nothing to do with gender issues (except perhaps in the tiny 1/10 of the global population known as "Western Civilization").  Throughout the rest of the world it's simply "clothing." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dr1819 (talk • contribs)


 * Question, FreplySpang - did you bother to read my comments below before making your sweeping decision? Dr1819 19:14, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment First of all, if you're going to carry on a dialog, PLEASE, sign your posts, so people can follow who said what. Just put 4 tilde's together at the end of your post ( ~ ). But as to the matter at hand, FreplySpang is right. What the rest of the world does is irrelevant. You have a movement to try to free Western men from traditional Western garments. It's a movement most people have never heard of, using a term most people have never heard. Fan1967 19:09, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Yes, as a matter of fact, I did. It seems that you, Dr1819, misunderstood my (much briefer) comment, or perhaps read into it some words that were not there. My objection has nothing to do with gender issues, but only (as so many people have said) with the term "male unbifurcated garment." Those millions of men wearing sarongs, lungis, kilts, wraps, whatever, don't call them MUGs and they don't wear them for the same reason you do. They aren't a movement, they're simply wearing "clothing." (Perhaps I should have omitted my parenthetical comment about "Unisex Unbifurcated Garment," as it seems to have confused you. In a culture where everyone wears a sarong (for instance), it is inaccurate to call it a "male" garment.) FreplySpang (talk) 14:35, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Strong Delete. None of the forms of these that have articles even mention this, and no, that is not an invitation to add this.

I would love to see some cites for the claims made in this discussion. Vegaswikian 19:16, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Response Cites available the moment you choose to follow the article's links! Dr1819 19:34, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Response Tildes included. "What the rest of the world does is irrelevant?"  Are you aware that Western civilization comprises just 10% of the population on this planet, and that a mere third of the users of the Internet are of Western origen?  What the rest of the world does may be irrelevant to you, but it's certainly relevant to most Wiki readers!  Perhaps you didn't notice the fact that Wiki pages are served in many languages, or that translation of English Wiki pages into other languages (and vice versa) is a high priority at Wiki.  Besides, no one here is trying to convert Western styles of fashion.  Do what you want.  Just stop believing that your choice of fashion should dictate what the rest of the world does, including among American men in your own country - they/we should be as free to wear what we want as anyone else on the planet.  As for the remainder of your comments, I defer to the more than 1 Million Google hits which clearly indicate it's not "a term most people have never heard" as you wrongly claim.  If you're prone to psychological projections, please keep them to yourself and let the evident facts at hand regarding the validity of the term speak for itself.  Thank you!  I appreciate any future objective discussion concerning this issue.  Dr1819 19:34, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Actually there are only 18,800 Google hits. And you are likely not helping your case by responding to every vote to delete. Vegaswikian 19:39, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Comment Men in non-Western cultures are already dressing according to their own customs, without the need for any help from you. You want to share your views on freeing up the way Western men dress. So far, nobody seems to have noticed this movement, and nobody is using this term. You would like to use Wikipedia to help spread the word. Wikipedia is not a soapbox. That's all. Fan1967 19:40, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete as non-notable term. The fact that there exist men who wear skirts/unbifurcated garments is not the issue, so all the references showing this are not necessary. The issue is with the term "Male Unbifurcated Garment". There is an argument for having an article covering "men who wear skirts/unbifurcated garments" - I agree that this does not fit in with kilts (which is just one form of this), nor cross-dressing (since it may not always be considered cross-dressing). However, this article is not about the practice, it is specifically about the term. Mdwh 19:38, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep The article actually deals with both the term, as well as the practice by 40% of the male population around the world.  The relevancy deals with both the frequency (about 30 times greater than the average Wiki article, such as "birdwatching"), as well as the significant issues of perception.


 * Firstly, note that the above user has already voted "Keep". Secondly: that many men wear these garments is relevant; that someone coined the term "MUG" for this isn't (or at least, that's what's being questionned). Mdwh 19:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete, nonsense, neologism. And note that I only get 84 Ghits -- .  And adding "-wikipedia" returns only 67 --   User:Zoe|(talk) 21:21, 14 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Response I'm terribly sorry your Googling skills only return "84 Ghits."  If I may suggest, please review the previous paragraphs which cite the variations required to find millions of Ghits for this particular topic.  Dr1819 00:41, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * As stated multiple times, the concept is notable, the term is not. Find out what it's usually called and then add references for the content. Just zis Guy you know? 09:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * I'm terribly sorry you are unable to hold a meaningful dialogue without resorting to personal attacks, but please explain how repeated attacks on those who disagree with you will get them to change their minds. Bu the way, did you even look at the links I provided?  That is how you do a Google search for a term, by enclosing it in quotes.  And your repeated assertion that every Google hit for "mug" refers to your pet project is ludicrous.  User:Zoe|(talk) 16:41, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete per User:Catamorphism. Non-notable neologism.  &middot; rodii &middot;  22:06, 14 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Changing my vote to keep in the face of Google evidence and in spite of the hysterical finger-pointing of Dr1819, who has visited 35 countries, in case anyone has forgotten. I am open to a rename of this to a more well-known term, should one appear.  &middot; rodii &middot;  23:18, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep: sufficient evidence of notability has been provided. Unclear why this article is so under fire. Interestingstuffadder 00:55, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Becvause no evidence of notability of this term has been provided. It appears to be a neologism or posisbly even a protologism; look at a Google search for "male unbifurcated garment" and most of the leading hits are mirrors, the balance appear to be blogs.  No reliable source has been cited for this being the common term.  Kilt gets 6.9 million hits, "male unbifurcated garment" less than 500.  Not even referenced as such when Beckham wore one, as far as I can tell - in other words, this is straight original research. Just zis Guy you know? 09:21, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep: If every term or word in a dictionary or encyclopedia were judged by the number of users searching that specific term, dictionaries and encyclopedias would be only 10 pages long. A new term needs to be available for EVERYONE to research and expand their knowledge base. Even if the concept is not universally accepted the fact still remains that there are those who MAY have an interest from reading or hearing the term and seek to understand. For what other purpose is Wiki here for?? Shoeiee 02:25, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Note Vote above actually from at 01:25, 15 May 2006. There is no user "Shoeiee" - Fan1967 01:36, 15 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete: Is this type of garment notable? Of course. However, I see no reliable sources that indicate the definintion of this term. As it stands, this article is nothing more than OR. --Hetar 05:26, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

--User:Unitedroad
 * Keep MUG is now a very well used term over the net and is gaining prominence even in fashion world for describing men's clothing which do not divide between the legs. It has the backing of many movements such as the bravehearts. One British company which makes MUG (Midas Clothing) was covered on the BBC the link to which you can easily find on google. I don't know why why there is this sceptism towards the article. It deserves more to be here than many other articles on wiki.
 * Comment Can you show me where Midas Clothing use the term "Male Unbifurcated Garment"? Do you have a link to the BBC article where they use this term? Who are the Bravehearts, and do you have anything to support the fashion world using this term? Thanks. Mdwh 21:42, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

"KEEP"...this article is worth of inclusion and MUG's are now a more popular term and gaining prominence. So it should be kept in Wikipedia.
 * — Preceding unsigned comment added by The Tinamou (talk • contribs), user's only edit. User:Zoe|(talk) 16:45, 15 May 2006 (UTC)
 * A sound argument for deletion: now more popular than what? Than not used at all?  Barely.  Gaining proiminence?  Sure - now it has a WP article.  But we can fix that... Just zis Guy you know? 21:46, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Mate No offence, but seems as if you take this article as a personal affront to you. Unitedroad 04:37, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Not as such, no. But I am pledged to wield the cluebat in respect of those who advance arm-waving as a counter to policy. Just zis Guy you know? 17:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete Term is a neologism and the creator of the article is a proselytizer for it. Has been creating other articles (Fashion Freedom -- up for deletion when I get a round tuit) and trying to use Skirt and dress for proselytization. Zora 20:39, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Unitedroad 04:42, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment - ok can we, as mentioned above , rename and direct MUG to "Male skirt"? This article does have relevance as we all know but the term MUG is yet to catch up all that much on popularity charts in opinions of many admins on WP. Going a little off context though, when I talked to one of my friends about Man Unbifurcated Garment, his split second reply was "MUG?"


 * Comment I will support renaming the article as Male Skirt because I disagree with Dr1819 on that Skirt is still a very narrow term in today's society. What do you call women's sarong in daily conversation? Half the time its a skirt. So I would say there is nothing wrong in the proposal given above by one person towards the top of this page. Unitedroad 07:24, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Response While I appreciate your support, you really cannot call it a skirt, for two reasons.  First, most males who wear MUGS throughout the world strongly resent it when people refer to their dress as a "skirt," due to it's feminine connotations.  They're wearing lunghi, sarongs, fustanellas, kilts - and more than 70 other terms, but most of them will respond with is, "For crying out loud, man!  It's a kilt, not a skirt!"  Or other words to that effect in their own language and accurately describing their particular term for the MUG they're wearing.  The second reason is that the MUG acronym encompasses both lower and full-body unbirfucated garments.  Many garments worn by males, predominantly in the Middle East, but also throughout Africa, Siberia, and other climates ranging from incredibly cold to unbearably hot, resemble dresses, not skirts.  Thus, using the term "skirt" is like calling a car a "wheel."  Or, in the case of those who're offended, calling a Porshe a "VW."  It's simply not equivalent.  The MUG acronym was developed more than a decade ago to accurately encompass, without either error or offence, all unbifurcated garments worn by males, hence, male unbifurcated garment - MUG.  What could be simpler?  Dr1819 18:25, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

I hope we can open up this aspect of debate further Unitedroad 13:45, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Kharb gaurav 07:56, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep this article is worth keeping on wikipedia as this is a very poppular garment in south asia in parts of INDIA, PAKISTAN, SRILANKA, BANGLADESH, and even Nepal Naresh wears one. this is also very popular in countries like FIJI. and 22% of the world poppulation which is among these countries wears it.
 * Yes, and the garments aren't called MUGs, they're called lungis or veshtis. Costume historians don't use the term MUG. It is a neologism with little currency outside a few web pages. Zora 09:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Greetings, Kharb, and congratulations on finding AfD with your fourth edit :-) Please take the itme to read the policies WP:V and WP:NOR and guidelines WP:RS and WP:NEO - and then see if you can find the reliable sources for the term male unbifurcated garment.  Nobody is disputing that men wear skirts, kilts, lungis, veshtis, sarongs or any one of a dozen other non-trouser garments - the problem is the terminology used, and the fact that this seems to be largely promoted by a single website community. Just zis Guy you know? 09:43, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete as per all the above. Clearly OR, unsourced. And it's worrying to see that after all this discussion, the author is still going on about how (of course!) the things the term is meant to stand for are notable, when everybody has been patiently explaining to him that the objections are not about the things but about the term. Fut.Perf. ☼ 18:28, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Article could be saved, but if it stays in its current form, then delete. The concept is worthy of an article (perhaps under another name), but not to serve as a platform for Dr1819's advocacy and extravagant claims. Churchh 18:39, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep - if it's on google more than 400 times then surely it's a real and quantifiable 'thing' therefore it has a place in the worlds best online encyclopedia? why delete something that exists and someone may want a reference on? ok if this were complete fiction then delete, but why not have something which improves the completeness of the wikipedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.38.205.228 (talk • contribs)


 * Delete per all of the above. Dbinder 23:14, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Also note that the keep vote is the only edit for 82.38.205.228 (above mine). Dbinder 23:15, 16 May 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep. The nom is wrong. This is not OR as the term is widely used by major publications worldwide. The following is a quote from the NY Times:
 * Some 100 men march down Fifth Avenue in skirts to proclaim their right to wear 'unbifurcated garments' without being called transvestites, homosexuals or cross-dressers...Yesterday, in what future generations may look back on as the birth of the Male Unbifurcated Garment movement, some 100 men in skirts marched from the Guggenheim Museum to the Metropolitan Museum of Art to proclaim their rights to women's clothing.... The sightseers gazed in awe at the crowd of men in unbifurcated garments. Someone in the crowd called up to ask the tourists what they thought. "What I think?" said one young man with a clearly foreign accent. "I think I love New York."ALAN FEUER, "Do Real Men Wear Skirts? Try Disputing A 340-Pounder", New York Times, Feb 8, 2004;

Or how about the The Economic Times (Bombay, India):
 * "the Lakme India Fashion Week decided to strut its stuff in Mumbai with Rohit Bal sending out his men in lungis, known by the trendier acronym MUG, which stands for Male Unbifurcated Garment." "Yeh hai Bombay meri jaan", Economic Times (Bombay, India), January 5, 2004

Or the Australian Magazine:
 * For anatomical reasons alone, "male unbifurcated garments" (MUGS) make good sense. The problem with trousers, according to one popular Web site, is that "all these seams and accompanying fabric converge at what is already the most crowded intersection in the male anatomy"..."What sarong with that?", Australian Magazine, November 29, 2003

Or the Sun Herald (Syndney,Australia):
 * ''there's a growing global movement of blokes who believe in a man's right to wear the Male Unbifurcated Garment or MUG (the correct term for legless menswear). In February, 100 skirted men from the Men's Fashion Freedom group marched through New York, protesting "trouser tyranny". "We're not transvestites," said one. "We're men. Men who want the right to wear a skirt."


 * Meanwhile, the pro-MUG group Kiltmen are battling on behalf of their private parts. "If we are proud of our maleness, we should treat our male organs with greater respect than by cramping them in trousers," says their website. Manly men throughout history wore MUGs, they say, and trousers "are no longer a symbol of manhood but rather a unisex garment customarily worn by women". Amy Cooper, "Great lengths''", Sun Herald, June 20, 2004

Sometimes understanding the articles here can require a bit of research. Often, google does not provide the best results. Deletion is rarely the best solution if we want to serve the needs of all our users whether in skirts, sarongs, trousers or MUGS. -- JJay 01:21, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

Google Results for MUGs

 * Results 1 - 10 of about 397,000 for "MUG" and "men" and "skirt". (0.15 seconds) Hardly what I'd call a "single website community" OR "unsourced," and rather abundant evidence that supports the term, as well as the thing.  Dr1819 18:30, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Comment Have you even looked at the results returned, at how many of them are sites that sell clothing, and also sell coffee, tea and beer mugs? Fan1967 19:36, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Including this: which is the packing list for Burning Man, which includes a mug, and how the person going loves men in skirts...  Now all you have to do is provide one link to a reliable source which attests to this being the term usually used to describe them. Just zis Guy you know? 20:01, 16 May 2006 (UTC)
 * Mugs, Steins, and Beverage VesselsLeather Jack - basically a wide based mug. Hand stitched handle and base. ... Banded mug with a Silver Dragon tooled and hand painted. ...
 * All Shop's Collectibles : Mrs. Cleaver's KitchenInset belt joins the three-piece skirt and jumper top. ... Each of the boys had a mug that was their favorite, so June tried to make sure it didn't develop ...


 * Metro Girl ExcerptIt had a v-neck that plunged halfway to my doodah, and the skirt fell ... Hooker was lounging against a kitchen counter with a mug of coffee in his hand. ...
 * FICTION AND POETRY FROM ZYZZYVALarry Michalik merely lowered his union coffee mug one morning, ... I pull some crumpled dollars from my skirt pocket and smooth them out on the countertop. ... ' - yep, that's sure proof. User:Zoe|(talk) 23:53, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Other comments have been moved to the Talk page

 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.