Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Manolita Saval


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep.   A rbitrarily 0   ( talk ) 00:39, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Manolita Saval

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Non-notable actress. Does not meet the criteria for WP:NACTOR. She has an IMDB entry, but a lot on non-notable actors and actresses do. Google search comes up with her wikipedia page, myspace page, and other pages that are mostly self-promotional. Most of the references listed on her wikipedia pages link to articles written in Spanish, which is not too helpful on English wkipedia. There is one passing mention of her in a NY Times article, but it is just part of a review. MisterRichValentine   (talk)  15:36, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * KEEP Is English Wikipedia only for people famous in the English-speaking world? I think we can be pretty sure that when La Prensa writes an article on her death, that she is not non-notable.  Saval has a substantial entry in Spanish Wikipedia and had leading roles in numerous Spanish-language movies and television programs over decades.  Sorry you can't read Spanish.  Also, Facebook pages for celebrities seem copied exactly from Wikipedia entries.  Since the first entry in the edit history is dated nine years after her death, I am pretty sure it is not "self-promotional." Trudyjh (talk) 17:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment I'm not saying that English Wikipedia is only for people who are famous in the English-speaking world, I'm saying that the references cited in English Wikipedia should be in English. If this person had leading roles in numerous notable television programs, then can you help source some references in English so that readers of English Wikipedia can use them?  I couldn't find any.
 * I fail to see the point you're trying to make with your comment about the source of information for facebook entries, so I can't really reply.
 * I did not say that the Wikipedia page is "self-promotional," I said that the webpages that come up via a google search are promotional, maybe not always 'self' promotional as many are advertisements for shows, movies, etc., but they are advertising nonetheless.  They are not reliable, secondary sources that establish any type of notability for this person.  I'm not saying that this person isn't notable, and I'm not some sort of bigot that believes if a person is popular in the Spanish-speaking community then they should have no place on English Wikipedia.  I'm saying that this article does not establish notability and I could not find any reliable secondary sources that do.  If this person is truly notable, then certainly there would be at least one or two external articles written in English about her that we can use as a reference on English Wikipedia.
 * Your attitude in this matter makes absolutely no sense. Would English Wikipedia be a useful project if we all wrote in any language we pleased, and when people did not understand the community response was "well sorry that you don't speak language x, we're keeping it how it is!"  No.  That's why there are different versions of Wikipedia for different languages.  If this person is notable then please source some references on her that are written in the language of this encyclopedia.   MisterRichValentine    (talk)  18:04, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Your comment that "the references cited in English Wikipedia should be in English" is contradictory to Wikipedia policy, see WP:NONENG for details. English sources are preferred for obvious reasons, but there is nothing wrong with foreign-language sources, which can be used to demonstrate notability. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:35, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I was unaware of that policy and thank you for bringing it to my attention. Although I completely disagree with the policy I understand that we all must follow it until it is changed.  Still, I am failing to find any sources that establish notability for this person, whether they be in Spanish, English, Japanese, whatever. MisterRichValentine    (talk)  19:30, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Understandable, there really are an incredible amount of policies here, it's very hard to be familiar with all of them. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:24, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep Her Reuters EFE obituary states that she starred in numerous Mexican films, so it seems like she meets WP:NACTOR. Mark Arsten (talk) 18:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Is a 404 page from a Panamanian website really the best source you have for this famous actress? 207.2.122.150 (talk) 19:08, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Seriously. If a mention in this 'reference' is enough to establish notability then it appears that we all have a lot of work to do.  Look who else is mentioned in this random collection of Panamanian newspaper snippets - Maritza Maestre, Delia Fiallo, and Roberto Mateos just to name a few!  None of these notable people have English Wikipedia pages devoted to them, how could that be? MisterRichValentine    (talk)  19:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * A couple things: a. Her obit was published by EFE--not exactly an obscure local outfit. b. Again, the last paragraph of her obit mentions that she has had roles in numerous Mexican films (En México protagonizó numerosas películas), which sounds to me like it satisfies WP:NACTOR. Mark Arsten (talk) 20:22, 20 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Well,
 * Article was created and edited by only one editor in 2010, no substantive edits since.
 * Has no article on Spanish Wikipedia. Portuguese article has no sources and was created and edited by only one editor, anonymously in 2008, no substantive edits since.
 * Google Books references appear to be film review digests and film dictionaries, under the entry for the film, where she is merely in a list as a supporting actress.
 * The current article is a sparse genealogy entry: birth, death, occupation, parents, number of films, obligatory quote that describes her as a nobody. Can anything more be made of this topic?
 * Source does not exist "Not Found": "Falleció actriz mexicana Manolita Saval" "La Prensa", 23 August 2001.
 * Looks like a supporting actress. 207.2.122.150 (talk) 18:58, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Comment: How actors and actresses were dealt with by the Mexico film industry before, during, and after WWII is a lot different than how equivalent American and other English language actors were treated back then or are treated in modern times. We best be more aware that notability not being temporary is something that also aplies to non-English actors and actresses from decades past, and that possible sources from Mexico 60 years ago will likley not be online... and thus accepting that patience is a virtue we can allow this to be worked on over time and through the contributions of editors able to search for and find any old archives news sources. That it's nominated state was poor and it had seen few edits, are not valid reasons to delete.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 04:04, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Then there should already be a few books in Spanish at least that substantiate the information on her? —Centrx→talk &bull; 17:20, 25 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Cautious delete - We need to be careful here: because she is Spanish, there may well be articles in Spanish which we simply cannot find. Despite this, the obituary (which might not work for some people because the link is to a Google translation) on its own is not enough, as that is no more the routine coverage. I would not expect as much as a English-language actress, but something more than what we have. My vote may change, depending on any new sources provided. She also does not have any articles on any other Wikipedias (except a poor one at the Portuguese Wikipedia). — Preceding unsigned comment added by ItsZippy (talk • contribs) 20:39, 20 February 2012


 * Comment For clarity note that I am not the person immediately above voting to delete. It is absolutely untrue as a previous commenter claims, that she has no article in Spanish wikipedia. Here is the link: http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manolita_Saval  Can you provide the "obligatory quote that describes her as a nobody"?  This is a parallel discussion to Manuel Saval, which MisterRichValentine is also trying to delete, so I see no need to repeat other arguments here.  Here is some sort of archive of La Prensa, Falleció actriz mexicana Manolita Saval: http://mensual.prensa.com/mensual/contenido/2001/08/23/uhora_farandula.shtml Trudyjh (talk)
 * I am not 'trying to delete' anything. I am merely bringing an article that may not meet Wikipedia's criteria for inclusion to the attention of the greater editing community.  Sometimes I'll do several of these in one sitting, so yes, I have posted other articles on the Afd page.  Other articles I've nominated for deletion have nothing to do with whether or not Manolita Saval is a notable person.  If you really think this page should be kept, you should be putting more effort into finding reliable secondary sources on the subject and less time making assumptions about your fellow editors (such as that they are 'trying to delete' something or that they are 'sorry they don't speak Spanish).  You may also want to brush up on what Wikipedia is and is not at: http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Mit%C3%A4_Wikipedia_ei_ole  MisterRichValentine    (talk)  22:31, 20 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Mexico-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 01:36, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 01:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep as the subject passes WP:NACTOR and WP:GNG. The nominator lacks of WP:BEFORE, and, as admitted by himself, he doesn't know policies, so it's strongly recommended he would study them before further nominations. This subject has received significant coverage even in 1939 (La Opinion), has multiple news hits and more than one thousand book sources. Cavarrone (talk) 02:49, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * Easy there homeboy, I never said that I "I don't know policies" I said that I was unaware of the 2 lines within the 10,000 pages of policy that state that notability can be realized entirely through foreign language sources. There's a bit of a difference between the two.  I will thank you to not put words in my mouth in the future.
 * I do, however, applaud the fact that you seem to be the only person on this discussion who has managed to link to a single reliable, secondary source about this actress. How foolish of me to miss that Spanish language newspaper article from 1939.  She is clearly uber-famous.  I regress.  MisterRichValentine    (talk)  14:24, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep - based on the news sources uncovered, Saval's very long career and large number of film roles since 1939, I'm convinced she will pass the WP:NACTOR criteria, and therefore WP:GNG. It would help if the nominator would stop mocking other contributors here and graciously admitted they had made a mistake (we're all human). Sionk (talk) 16:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)
 * I did do exactly that, read my last comment. Although I would not consider it 'a mistake' per se.  The article did not meet notability criteria as it was written when I nominated it, and my search didn't reveal anything that would meet the criteria.  I admitted that I missed that newspaper article from 1939, which I think is understandable.  I also admit that this conversation has certainly gone south, however I wasn't the one blasting others accusing them of racism and bigotry.  There have been many instances on the Afd page where a page is nominated and the consensus is 'keep' - most people voting 'keep' are able to so and back it up with one or two lines of secondary, reliable sources. Others immediately resort to bogus accusations, name calling, and other unproductive behavior, until eventually somebody else posts a source for them and finally puts a stop to the nonsense.  MisterRichValentine    (talk)  17:09, 21 February 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep and continue improvements as WP:ENT has been established and we do not expect extended, current world-wide coverage, nor English-only sources, for an actress who has her screen debut in Mexico in 1939. And I note that when nominated, this article DID include several quite decent sources. As improving the article format and sourcing have proven to be addressable issues, perhaps the nominator might wish to withdraw his nomination. And a sidenote: in order to better serve our readers, we do need more articles on non-English actors and actresses, AND will always appreciate when the current ones are improved.  Schmidt,  MICHAEL Q. 03:40, 22 February 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.