Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/María José Torrenegra


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. First, there is clear consensus that the article does not meet WP:GNG. All objections (and there are not so many) appeal in some form to WP:OTHERSTUFF, which is not a good argument to object deletion. Having said that, I acknowledge that many voters raised a valid point, and it would be good to have an RfC which could decide on notability criteria for beauty contest participants/winners, rather than blank-nominate all of them for AfD. Interested users are encouraged to start such an AfD.--Ymblanter (talk) 07:36, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

María José Torrenegra

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Non-notable person who won a beauty contest in 2006, and, er, that's it. The rest of the article is PR fluff; the one reference cited no longer works. A Google search doesn't bring up any information about her. She doesn't even have an article on the Spanish Wikipedia, so she can't be that important. Richard3120 (talk) 22:56, 26 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Colombia-related deletion discussions. Richard3120 (talk) 22:56, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment. The dead link in the article has a copy at the Wayback machine. --Larry/Traveling_Man (talk) 01:53, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Thank you Larry, you are quite correct. Still, all the news article says is that all the Miss World contestants sang in Beijing, and contains a quote from Miss Torrenegra saying that it was important to participate in the country where the-then upcoming Olympic Games were to be held, and how pleased she was to represent her country... not exactly a citation that adds much of value to her Wikipedia article. Richard3120 (talk) 03:51, 27 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Support: I tried to clean it up, but there's not much substance to this article. static shakedown ʕ •ᴥ•ʔ  20:36, 28 April 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete. I don't agree with some of the nom's reasoning (WP:OTHERSTUFFDOESNTEXIST), and project WP:BEAUTY offers little guidance, but I do agree that there's precious little out there about her, other than her contest win. That's just not enough. --Larry/Traveling_Man (talk) 00:57, 1 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Yes, you are right, whether she has a Spanish Wiki article is neither here nor there. Richard3120 (talk) 18:08, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep: 91 articles in Category:Miss World 2007 delegates, so part of a series. If being a contestant confers notability, then it's enough even if there is little else.  That said, if participation alone is insufficient, then I would probably move to weak delete.   Montanabw (talk)  03:50, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment I think has opened up a wider area of discussion here. Looking at other entries under that category, many of them are also little more than one paragraph supported by a single, sometimes unreliable, source. I wonder what criteria WP:BEAUTY had for notability, and whether they should be reviewed. But that's a separate argument to this one. Richard3120 (talk) 19:41, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete as nothing else suggesting the necessary notability improvements. SwisterTwister   talk  04:43, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Weak delete. I suspect that in this case, most of the sources would be in Spanish, so maybe we can get a Spanish-speaking editor over here to look? If not, then delete. White Arabian Filly  Neigh 21:34, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment: I came across this article coming from WP:COLOMBIA, and I put this article up for deletion because I couldn't find much in the way of Colombian references either. For example, here is the online article regarding Miss Torrenegra's win from Colombia's major national newspaper, El Tiempo – as you can see, it's not fantastically informative. However, I can see it might cause problems with WP:BEAUTY if I ask for this to be deleted, because as I have indicated above it would then call into question a lot of the existing articles on Miss Universe contestants: in the interests of fairness I'm going to post a message on the project's talk page linking to this AfD and ask for their opinions. Richard3120 (talk) 22:06, 2 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep. It's not simply that the subject was a contestant at Miss World; it's also that she first won the Miss Colombia pageant that year.  To put this in perspective, I note that every Miss America winner has her own article, as does every winner of Miss USA.  And so does every winner of Miss Teen USA.  Because I'm not comfortable with setting different (and tougher) standards for pageants hosted outside the United States, being a national-level winner of a pageant that feeds one of the "big four" international pageants should be considered inherently notable.  On a slightly different tack, a few months ago there was an attempt to foster some discussion of notability over on the Talk page of WP:BEAUTY.  It didn't seem to go anywhere, but perhaps it would be worthwhile to try again.  NewYorkActuary (talk) 20:32, 3 May 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, &mdash; Music1201  talk  22:36, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment:, I did see that notability discussion that you mention – I also noted that the first comment was that many articles on former beauty queens had been put up for deletion recently, and as an outsider it isn't hard to see why: looking at a few of the articles belonging to former Miss USA and Miss Teen USA winners, many of them are completely unsourced. I think therein lies the project's problem – other editors are coming across the articles from WikiProject or WP:BIO or whatever and finding that they fail Wikipedia's general notability guidelines. Just because Miss Torrenegra won Miss Colombia doesn't mean she necessarily passes notability for having her own article on Wikipedia, and I'm afraid the same could be said for many of the Miss USA and Miss Teen USA winners as well. I appreciate that it's the goal of the project to have articles for all winners of beauty contests worldwide, and that's commendable, but I do think WP:BEAUTY urgently needs to establish some notability guidelines (at least having one reference from a reliable source), otherwise the project is going to continue to find itself having to defend deletion proposals. Richard3120 (talk) 23:27, 3 May 2016 (UTC)
 * It sounds like we both agree that there needs to be some community consensus as to how these articles should be treated. And if that discussion ever gets re-started over at the WikiProject talk page, I'll be happy to participate.  But right now, we have the question of whether to keep an article on a national-level winner, even if that article is going to be a permanent stub.  And without a clear guideline telling us different, our treatment of the winners of non-U.S. pageants should be the same as that given to winners of the U.S. pageants.  As I noted above, I take this position because I'm not comfortable with establishing a double standard (i.e., U.S. winners are given a de facto pass on the general notability guidelines, whereas non-U.S. winners are not).  By the way, there are plenty of areas on Wikipedia in which the notability guidelines are not applied at the level of the individual article, but at some higher level.  For example, the general notability guidelines are not applied to professional baseball players (simply having played in the major leagues is enough for a stand-alone article, e.g. Hezekiah Allen).  Being an Olympic athlete is pretty much enough to get a stand-alone article, even if the athlete didn't get beyond the first round of competition and had no other athletic career of note.  The common factor here seems to be a belief that competition at the field's highest level makes one inherently notable.  And so, the instant question is whether winning a national-level pageant, and thus qualifying for international competition, triggers that same notion of "inherent notability".  I think it does but, more importantly, we already have a community consensus that it does, provided the pageant was held in the U.S.  Until WP:BEAUTY decides otherwise, we should extend that same notion to the non-U.S. winners, as well.  NewYorkActuary (talk) 14:34, 8 May 2016 (UTC)
 * But surely there is a clear guideline for general notability: that the information is verifiable and comes from a reliable source. This is true across the whole of Wikipedia – and, slightly off topic here, for me one of Wikipedia's major problems is that it doesn't enforce this very basic guideline, and thus we have tens of thousands of stub articles which are unreferenced or unreliably referenced, and really have no place on Wikipedia... I think this is undermining Wikipedia's credibility. To get back to the topic, I do understand that WP:BEAUTY wants to have comprehensive coverage of all beauty pageant contestants, which is great, but your argument does seem a bit WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS to me. Anyway, we've both made our points and I'll leave it to admin to decide what to do here. Thank you for voicing your opinions on this subject. Richard3120 (talk) 04:29, 10 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:10, 5 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fashion-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 20:10, 5 May 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment: I've weighed in on many pageant winner AfDs over the years.  Essentially what I have seen is that a contestant who wins the primary pageant of that country (in almost any country of any size), typically these are kept, as sourcing can be found that shows the subject meets WP:GNG.  This subject won Miss Mundo Colombia in 2007, which feeds to Miss World; she did not win Miss Colombia.  Miss World and Miss Earth winners simply don't seem to fare as well at AfD or in the press as Miss Universe country winners do.--Milowent • hasspoken  14:54, 11 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - Considering that she won a pageant almost a decade ago, and did not win the "bigger" pageant, and given that there is no other information on her since then, this is really a case of WP:BLP1E. As stated earlier, there are no sources available to support notability, and WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS also applies with respect to the existence of a category of contestants.  Articles have to stand on their own merits. MSJapan (talk) 01:17, 15 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - this would seem to me to be be a WP:BLP1E case. Other "Miss xxx entrant/winner" articles existing is not a reason for this to exist (perhaps a lot of those could do with pruning...); I do not see evidence that this person meets the notability criteria. A possible solution (if suitable sources could be found) would be to create a "Miss xxx pageant winners" article with a paragraph for each one, with what little sourcing is available - however, that would be a project for someone else to consider. As it stands, this article does not meet the criteria for a stand-alone article.  Phantom Steve / talk &#124; contribs \ 15:09, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment: When a biography is part of a series, actually, yes, it does pass the OTHERSTUFF threshold.   Montanabw (talk)  18:20, 16 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete a person who wins a beauty contest or two, if that is all they appear to have done, is not thereby notable. If there are other articles that fall into the same situation as this one, that is an argument for AFDing those articles, not for keeping this one. SJK (talk) 14:20, 17 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - I'm in total agreement. This looks like a particularly glaring case of WP:BLP1E, and, even then, it's not as if her past win was a gigantic achievement to the point that it's received notable news coverage since. As has been said in these such discussions over and over again, being accomplished in personal terms is not the same thing as being notable. The article should be deleted. CoffeeWithMarkets (talk) 18:27, 18 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - the consensus has grown that winning a single, less-known contest as a model does not make one notable. Bearian (talk) 19:31, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * Comment: I suppose if we are working toward a consensus that, for example, being a Miss Universe contestant meets the criteria, but Miss World contestants to not (only the winners or highest-placing contestants), I could live with that.  I just want to be sure that we don't get into a "Miss USA is notable but Miss Uruguay is not" thing,   Montanabw (talk)  22:33, 19 May 2016 (UTC)
 * "Miss USA is notable but Miss Uruguay is not" -- no, that should not happen. However, it's certainly possible that the situation could arise where a particular Miss USA was notable but Miss Uruguay was not - or vice versa. It would not be a blanket statement based on their title, but rather on meeting Wikipedia notability guidelines. --Larry/Traveling_Man (talk) 00:18, 20 May 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.