Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maria Anto & Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven Art Prize


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Ignoring the input of ZuJani--B per WP:COI and WP:TLDR.  Sandstein  14:45, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Maria Anto & Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven Art Prize

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Fails WP:GNG. The article was written by an editor who is on the Art Prize Committee and is related to Maria Anto. Half of the citations are to this editor's self-published blog. The other half are press releases and trivial mentions by connected (non-independent) art galleries and museums. I am unable to find significant coverage in reliable, third-party published sources. Woodroar (talk) 14:25, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Arts-related deletion discussions. Woodroar (talk) 14:25, 20 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete like nom and Justlettersandnumbers in the article history, my search does not turn up any reliable, independent sourcing for this award. I don't read Polish, but the French article is also unreliable sourcing, so nothing there from which to expand/improve this. Star   Mississippi  14:53, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 15:16, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Visual arts-related deletion discussions.  CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 15:16, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Awards-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 18:39, 20 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete. No indication of notability: nothing on JSTOR, nothing on Scholar, no verifiable result on GBooks. Also blatant promotion by an apparently closely-connected editor. Justlettersandnumbers (talk) 20:26, 20 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment. The article was created as part of a Polish Wikipedia GLAM initiative (pl:Wikiprojekt:GLAM/Kolektyw Kariatyda), so the COI is at least partially mitigated, I think. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 05:46, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete. I have done a source review and I concur this niche prize is not notable. I've also nominated the corresponding pl wiki article for deletion. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 07:35, 21 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The Art Prize is first independent INTERNATIONAL Art Prize in Poland. Fairly important for art scene. The international Artists were honoured and accepted this Prize. I'm in the Committee, but it wasn't me who created the article in Polish Wiki. Please do not write such information. I was trying to make an English version for the international laureates, as they would like to have it. The award is important and also it's a part of the idea of inclusion and visuality of women artists.--ZuJani--B (talk) 11:36, 21 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Not to delete The article was created by Kolektyw Kariatyda - (pl:Wikiprojekt:GLAM/Kolektyw Kariatyda). And for the art scene - the Maria Anto & Elsa von Freytag-Loringhoven Art Prize is a new, inclusive way of promoting visual art and make woman artists with a long carrier visible widely. The woman artists has been awarded in 10-12% so the project is about to change this situation, plus the event is well known internationally already, promoted, located in the most important Polish Art Institution: Zachęta National Gallery and MSN / Museum of Modern Art in Warsaw - both involved. And more. The Art Prize is one of the new, independent idea of promoting art. It "is notable" for visual art. Artists, including Phyllida Barlow where present and active on the ceremonies even online. The National Gallery participated in a financial prizes for Polish Artist. Is notable for artist. Still young award but important. As the Art Prize is a new idea - the blog is at the a relevant and simple way of record the pictures and videos of the events, which people ask for. Why to delate from Wiki such a brilliant idea and so important for woman artists? --ZuJani--B (talk) 11:51, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * , "Why to delate from Wiki such a brilliant idea and so important for woman artists?" Because WP:NOTSOAPBOX and saying WP:ITSIMPORTANT is not a good argument. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 12:20, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  12:19, 21 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus Panie Piotrusiu, pisanie do mnie po angielsku nie ma sensu. Chcę tylko powiedzieć, że użycie słowa "important" - było skrótem myślowym, wobec równie nietrafionego argumentu "not notable" (?!) użytego przez wikipedystę angielskiego. Nawet trudno mi to skomentować, bo nie wiem, czemu to służy. Polska wersja jest dobrze linkowana i cytowana. Angielska w trakcie uzupełniania i poprawy. W obszarze sztuki ta nagroda jest prestiżowa, honorowa, nadana przez artystki dla artystek i tak jest przez laureatki traktowana, bardzo "ważna" (important), tak została nazwana przez nie właśnie. Ta idea jest pionierska w Polsce, choć oczywiście nie na świecie, bo np. są nagrody i stypendia imiania różnych artystów, choćby międzynarodowe stypendium Pollock-Krasner czy inne nagrody imienia zmarłych wybitnych artystów nadawane przez spadkobierców-fundacje, lub spadkobierców-rodziny. Nie ma w tym nic dziwnego. A że tłumaczenie robi osoba, która się zna i wie o takiej potrzebie - to chyba tylko lepiej? Tak sądzę. Po zapoznaniu się z artykułem w wersji polskiej uznaliśmy, że artykuł jest mocno osadzony w cytatach do portali najważniejszych instytucji sztuki współczesnej w Polsce - Muzeum Sztuki Nowoczesnej, Zachęta Narodowa Galeria Sztuki, uczelni - Akademia Sztuki Szczecinie, Akademia Sztuk Pięknych w Krakowie i Warszawie, a także mediów jak GW, SZUM (specjalistyczny) i szereg innych portali, w tym własną stroną/ blogiem Nagrody, jako źródłem ilustracji i wiedzy szerszej i dokładniejszej niż WIKI. Obecnie trwają pracę nad kolejnym wydawnictwem i dwoma pozycjami książkowymi o Marii Anto, której powrót na scenę sztuki jest bardzo widoczny (łącznie z publikacją obrazu w Le Monde w tym roku, czy planowana wystawa w Londynie i NY w przyszłym), więc jak najbardziej trafiony artykuł i uznaliśmy, że na tyle jest to już znane, iż nastąpiła próba przetłumaczenia na różne języki, choćby z tego powodu. Artykuł oryginalny w WIKI.pl, nie był pisany przez osobę "related", tylko przez niezależną osobę, znawczynie tematu, z wykształcenia historyczkę sztuki, znaną w środowisku, jako specjalistka w problematyce sztuki współczesnej. Natomiast próba przetłumaczenia na angielski i tylko próba [przetłumaczenia, a nie "pisanie artykułu" (jest mało osób znających się na sztuce współczesnej, więc czekamy w nieskończoność na tłumaczenia o nagrodzie międzynarodowej na j. ang.), - rzeczywiście, przez osobę zasiadającą w Kapitule Nagrody i główną Fundatorkę Nagrody Sztuki, pierwszej międzynarodowej, pionierskiej, niezależnej Nagrody Sztuki w Polsce. O ile w projekcie chodziło o stworzenie nagrody przywołującej wybitne artystki, w tym laureatki z USA i Wlk Brytanii, o tyle teraz chodzi o przetłumaczenie na wersję angielską (międzynarodowy dostęp), przecież bez dodatkowych faktów "related" (jestem osobą profesjonalną i nie tylko pracuję w sztuce ponad 30 lat, ale zdaję sobie sprawę, jak zachować profesjonalną neutralność w takich kwestiach), dlatego dokonałam tylko automatycznego przetłumaczenia z korektami linków (niestety automat niszczy tę pracę i trzeba żmudnie od nowa), dla obszaru językowego laureatek z USA i Wlk Brytanii. Rzeczywiście, można było poprosić inne osoby, ale akurat trochę czasu pozwoliło na zajęcie się tym tłumaczeniem. W końcu, jeśli Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus mówi po polsku i angielsku - to proszę - bardzo proszę o pomoc - może warto by pomóc w redakcji i proszę nie stać za usunięciem pionierskiego i historycznego polskiego projektu sztuki współczesnej, o charakterze międzynarodowym i historycznym w kwestii wiedzy o sztuce współczesnej i kulturze polskiej i międzynarodowej. --ZuJani--B (talk) 20:59, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * , I will reply in English since this is the English Wikipedia and the netiquette (wikiquette) asks that our discussion is easily understood by others. I will direct you to WP:ITSIMPORTANT, and second to WP:Notability. Those are related but not identical concepts. You are likely right that the award is important, but this is not the same as being notable. I was not the person who started this deletion discussion, and so far four voters here are convinced this award lacks in-depth coverage in independent sources to show its notability (this is the requirement of English Wikipedia, Polish tends to be laxer).
 * It is commendable that you attempt to improve Wikipedia coverage related to such topics, but please read Advocacy (the purpose of Wikipedia is not to right some wrongs). Keeping that in mind, I'd encourage you to focus on bringing to English Wikipedia (and Wikipedia in general) articles about topics such as Maria Anto, an obviously notable artist. She would never be deleted, and I hope that you can see why an article about an established artist is much more notable ("encyclopedic") than about an award that is just three years old. Once again, activism is a great thing, but it is not always compatible with Wikipedia.
 * Lastly, so that your effort is not wasted, I would support a WP:DRAFTIFICATION of this article instead of outright deletion. In few years, this award may become notable, once it attracts more coverage (for example, once some scholars publish peer reviewed papers in which they say it is an important milestone and such). Then the article can be moved back to the mainspace. In other words, this is likely a case of WP:TOOSOON.--Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 04:11, 22 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Woodroar - the original article in Polish Wikipedia was written by a person absolutely not related and I, as a co-Founder of the Art Prize - haven't know it is done, actually. Only was told much later. The English version - in fact started by myself, was my try to make a TRANSLATION of a ready article only. Please do not say "written article by person related". Yes, I must say - I tried for the first time a tool of WIKi to translate - to make a translation just for the laureates - British and American artists and the galeries connected to them, as they suggested - would like to promote and have an more "international language" - as English is. Also I'm a professional artist acting in art scene more then 30 years, also PhD of Fine Art habilitated in Contemporary Art and I really know how to keep a professional neutrality in such matter as the translation in WIKI is. Moreover, I'm a one of 4 children and I'm not a successor of Maria Anto, so this "relation" has no consequences but the prestige of the Art Prize and idea of inclusion of forgotten international woman artists. Please show me any "private" or "related" things added by me in such translation. There are no such. Sure, I'm the private Founder of the Prize, I'm the sponsor of the Foundation Miejsce Sztuki, I"m also fully into the idea of INCLUSION, I'm in Committee of this important project for the international art scene, linking American, Polish, British, German, French, Canadian, Japan and minority as Gypsy as well, art scene, but it's not making any relation to the Art Prize WIKI article, more then knowledgeable in contemporary art and need for having the same as Polish, but an English translation. I'm new at Wikipedia, but more then 30 years in contemporary art. Sorry for my spelling mistakes. Please help us to improve the article in English for the British and American laureates, if you can. Anybody can help to improve French version, would be really helpful for all artists, as well. Merci. Thank you.--ZuJani--B (talk) 21:49, 21 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Star - Not to delete  - but yes I agree that also French version need some improvement as well, as the wiki translation from Polish, which I also tryed is disappointing (sorry!), and I - as a new at Wiki- could't menage with it as well. Anybody can help? I speak French but not good enough right now (forgotten), so would like to collaborate with somebody to fix it. It may be some French language laureate in some future, so we'd need it as well. Thank you. Merci. --ZuJani--B (talk) 21:58, 21 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Before anyone can help you, there needs to be reliable source coverage of the prize. That does not appear to exist yet. As you said, it's new, so it may just be too soon. Star   Mississippi  01:53, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I'll do it asap--ZuJani--B (talk) 18:06, 22 June 2021 (UTC)
 * "A major contributor to this article appears to have a close connection with its subject. (June 2021)" -- is not really as it it. Please remove such a confusing and not really fair information, which I assume is supposed to prove to remove the article. This it honestly not correct. Yes, as I said I make some updating and a try to translate from Polish to English for the Laureate. But, please let's treat each other like a human, not a bot or robot. My contribution doesn't ruin a neutrality of the matter of the subject. All mentions about "daughter", etc, and all notes about not professional but private connection, was done NOT by me. I usually avoid it, as my mother and me - we are professional artists, and I being a professional artist have been active 30 years with my mother artist and other members of the family also artist or connected, and we alway keep neutrality (except maybe the article about person-artist, which include "private life"), but not projects like this. So I find it over-reacting on such work I have done to improve the article for others not for me, honestly. I'd rather need some help to keep flow in between culture and art of the countries then cut it and put the language and unimportant details as a hard-border. Am I wrong? Apologies the spelling mistake - I'm going to correct it with time as well.--ZuJani--B (talk) 08:42, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * With all due respect, we're not treating you like a robot. We're treating you as an artist who is advertising themselves and their award and refusing to comply with our guidelines. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a social media site where you can write anything you want. Please read our conflict of interest guidelines in full before doing anything else. That page explains the reasoning behind our guidelines, the disclosures that you absolutely need to make, and the penalties for not complying—like having your account blocked. Woodroar (talk) 12:46, 24 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Woodroar thank you for your kind answer. OK I understand that I cannot touch the article in such understanding. Honestly I wouldn't touch it from the beginning if somebody could do it, translate it into English without me. So I'm not doing it anymore, as you speak - I wanted to help, but it seams to be only wrong. Thank you for explaining it to me. --ZuJani--B (talk) 19:29, 24 June 2021 (UTC)

Citing yourself Shortcut WP:SELFCITE Using material you have written or published is allowed within reason, but only if it is relevant, conforms to the content policies, including WP:SELFPUB, and is not excessive. Citations should be in the third person and should not place undue emphasis on your work. You will be permanently identified in the page history as the person who added the citation to your own work. When in doubt, defer to the community's opinion: propose the edit on the article's talk page and allow others to review it. However, adding numerous references to work published by yourself and none by other researchers is considered to be a form of spamming.
 * DO NOT REMOVE Woodroar I went through the conflict of interest guidelines, again and the main aspect" "Typically, a conflict of interest arises when an individual finds himself or herself occupying two social roles simultaneously which generate opposing benefits or loyalties" - is not accurate, because my positiona are not generating "opposing benefits or loyalties" in any aspects, but the same- knowledge about contemporary art. The Art Prize is not "promoting" me, but artist. And making english translation - not "promoting" Art prize but laureates. So even that according your suggestion I cannot touch the article now, but I would like you to understand our position here, when we do as much as possible to make artists visible (including British artist, laureates not known enough in Poland or other countries), that the milieu of contemporary art scene in Poland is so small and facing such difficulties of invisibilité and no-understanding art, that this is just a pro bono work for this matter. --ZuJani--B (talk) 11:12, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment you get one !vote, just like the rest of us, which you noted up top. We know you do not want the article to be deleted. Please note any follow up, such as the one immediately above as a reply, or comment. Also, I think it may be a question of Polish-English, but please be careful in saying "our position here" as that could imply a role account, which isn't allowed. Star   Mississippi  12:39, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
 * , that quote leads me to believe that you read our encyclopedia article on conflict of interests, not the Wikipedia conflict of interest guidelines, so I would make sure to go back and read the guidelines if you haven't. The article does explain a lot about conflicts of interest, but not specifically as they pertain to Wikipedia.That being said, what you're doing here is opposing our goal. As editors, we're supposed to summarize what reliable sources say about our subjects. And by "reliable sources", I mean scholarly journals, newspapers, magazines, and so on. It's not about what we as individuals know about. But you're using your own blog and gallery announcements (which are equivalent to press releases) to write about yourself, the award that you help run, and people who you've given the award to. That is absolutely a conflict of interest. And you're still doing it, even while this discussion is happening.I understand that your art scene doesn't get much coverage and how frustrating that can be. There's very little coverage of my local art or music scene, either. Much of the music I listen to—even international bands—don't meet our notability requirements so they don't have articles. But that's okay. We're not here to write about everything. We're here to write about subjects that meet a minimum threshold of coverage by reliable sources because (as I stated earlier) we only summarize what those sources say. Woodroar (talk) 16:25, 26 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I see. I read both, Woodroar. OK - wrong quote. And of course - I understand. I just would like to tell you Woodroarand Star  and all other who are here, that I don't know why and how it happened when translating into English, by wiki-translating-tool (which I only used, I haven't written this article in Polish neither in English. never made any link to the blog, as far as I remember. Except I made some little corrections of data etc. This wasn't me who created it, I told it already), any "reliable sources" from the Polish article disappeared just in this process of translating and links to our info-blog (not by me, I only copied what was already), stayed linked. And now it really may look like a mine work in purpose. But it isn't. Why is like that? I don't know. Sorry. I really don't know, how it works. Why is that? The translation-tool destroy it itself. I know that some magasine, newspaper and catalogue in Polish included it - so it may be a sources, but I'm not following it. I don't know what kind of links and citations was used by Polish creator of the article. Now I have to carefully look at it and find it and add, but again as you said -- I cannot do it, because I'm to close to it. So it's a trap. Sorry. Please do not blame me that I'm trying to do something against criteria, but I was trying to share a right knowledge. I appreciate your time and explanation and I'd love to make this article to be Ok to stay for our English speaking laureates, because this is International Art Prize. Anyways, to make it short - I'll try and ask, maybe somebody can found the sources and do something. Please also try to see closer and analyse the differences between the British and Polish art situation. I was living in London several times and there are more differences between art scene then you see it at first (just to say that we have 20 good galeries in Warsaw, you have 2000 in London, we act 30 year, you maybe 130 in art market, and we have almost no support from the officials, especially last years, so we act "out the box", independently as much as possible) -- so I can see now, Polish wiki is much less restricted then English is - maybe also because you have a wide problem of globalisation of the language and meet many strange articles in English. We are a "small language society" in term of our language, and here most of it is quickly and easily verifiable. On the other side - this Polish language is also like an invisible language-curtain, which make think invisible widely. But somehow "Le Monde" published painting of Maria Anto lately. Maybe the wiki (even En) works? --ZuJani--B (talk) 10:54, 27 June 2021 (UTC)
 * to be more accurate, I think that this part should be read and interpreted more openly in such case....

Cultural sector "WP:CURATOR" redirects here. For the tool used by Wikipedia:New pages patrol, see Wikipedia:Page Curation. Further information: Wikipedia:GLAM, Wikipedia:Advice for the cultural sector, and Wikipedia:The Wikipedia Library/Cultural Professionals Shortcut WP:CURATOR Museum curators, librarians, archivists, and similar are encouraged to help improve Wikipedia, or to share their information in the form of links to their resources. If a link cannot be used as a reliable source, it may be placed under further reading or external links if it complies with the external links guideline. Bear in mind that Wikipedia is not a mirror or a repository of links, images, or media files. maybe we can also add: translation? Have a good day --ZuJani--B (talk) 14:26, 28 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.