Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marie Grice Young


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. WP:SNOW. No point leaving this open. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont)  07:29, 10 January 2018 (UTC)

Marie Grice Young

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Not even remotely notable. There were THOUSANDS of people on the Titanic, to the point that it would be very unlikely if there weren't LGBT passengers, (openly or not); hence being an LGBT passenger on the Titanic is not notable. She doesn't seem to have been otherwise heavily involved with the incident, (if she became a maritime safety advocate then would be notable), but nothing about her is really that notable. She is not a current prisoner of conscience, officeholder, activist or in anyway notable and media that mentions her mostly consists of brief statements or is from incredibly niche sources, and there is/was no undue censorship of her from such media to account for such lack of mention. She was not famous before the incident nor did she become famous afterwards (ex Dorothy Gibson), nor was she an engineer or decision-maker that had a role in the disaster (ex, J. Bruce Ismay). She did not take charge of a lifeboat to return to the scene of the accident and rescue more people (ex Harold Lowe), nor was her survival the subject of a film/musical/book/etc (ex Edith Rosenbaum) She ends up as just one of many people who survived the Titanic, (who could have been an LGBT person among a group of thousands of people) and that itself is not worth an article. PlanespotterA320 (talk) 18:58, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep: she was famous before the Titanic as a sought after piano teacher in Washington (the references in the article are just a few of those you can find in newspaper of the time) and moreover at least two of your motivations (she did not take charge of a lifeboat and media that mentions her mostly consists of brief statements) are false: these article said exactly the opposite, and . She was by the way the last First Class women passenger to leave the Titanic (another thing that is more than once reported in newspapers) and she is often cited in books about the Titanic, for one reason or the other: 10 results as "Marie G. Young" and 290 books as "Marie Grice Young". If you search newspapers.com during her lifetime, "Marie G. Young" return 66 articles:  and "Marie Grice Young" 31 articles:, without considering "Miss Marie Young" (the name she went for) in New York and Washington, 93 article: . I think this is more than enough to prove notability. Elisa.rolle (talk) 19:08, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * A mention in a newspaper is not much for this scenario considering that newspapers would want to interview Titanic survivors, especially. Being a good piano teacher is not notable unless said person is Beethoven, Mozart, etc. After the titanic sank lists of survivors and deaths with descriptions of the person were posted everywhere to help families find there loved ones. She is not the subject of a major work of popular culture, and like I said, it doesn't matter if she was just in charge of a lifeboat, but if she went against orders from higher-up or used force to get the boat to return it would be notable (see Margaret Brown).  Assisting a lifeboat wouldn't have been unusual, lifeboats required many people to operate. A niche research compilation about Titantic would turn up some biography of nearly every passenger, that doesn't mean every passenger was important. She didn't cause the accident, she wasn't the subject of popular media adaptions, she was nothing more than a passenger with a sightly above-average life. Doesn't merit whole article.--PlanespotterA320 (talk) 20:16, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * She is not "A mention in a newspaper", she is in the headlines: "Miss Young, Passenger on Titanic, Taught Music to Roosevelt" ; “Miss Marie G. Young, An Interesting Piano Recital by Her Pupils” ; “Last Pupils’ Recitals Given by Miss Young’s Students” ; “Miss Young’s Pupils, The President Attended Their Recital Saturday Afternoon ; “The Misses Young Safe” ; “Last Good Bye” ; “Miss Young to Give Reading in Slaterville” ; “Lives Saved by Woman’s Insistence” “Miss Marie G. Young, Former Music Teacher at the White House, Rescued From the Titanic, Describes the Sufferings of Some of the Survivors” ; “103 years later, OutSmart dives into the lives of LGBT passengers aboard the Titanic” ; “New Musical Reading of Enoch Arden” ; “Miss Marie Young Dies” ; "She Saw Maj. Butt with Col. Astor Go Down to Death”  Elisa.rolle (talk) 20:46, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * This book: "Titanic: women and children first" has a chapter about her and White and a photo of the both of them... among thousand of women (and men) they chose to talk about her. Again notability proven
 * Keep: looks like enough reliable sources to me. I feel like the argument "niche sources" needs to be better explained; I would argue that plenty of niche topics are present on Wikipedia - wouldn't Star Wars lore count as niche? Regardless, what guidelines do we have on niche-ness of sources and avoiding such sources?
 * I agree with that there are plenty of books mentioning Young; this one mentions that she was a former music teacher at the White House (the article should perhaps feature this detail more prominently). = paul2520 (talk) 20:21, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep: Plenty of sourcing. Not all sourcing comes in big write-ups; sometimes you have to pick the information out of numerous sources to form the whole.  At least one of the sources I saw above described her as "the White House music teacher". Plus, she helped save lives during the Titanic sinking - she was a public hero during an historic tragedy. Just so happens that all of this occurred before the era of radio and television talk shows, otherwise the Titanic and White House associations would have her making the rounds. — Maile  (talk) 21:46, 9 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk &bull;&#32;mail) 01:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Washington-related deletion discussions. Regards, Krishna Chaitanya Velaga (talk &bull;&#32;mail) 01:03, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep In my opinion, the RS found by other editors demonstrate that WP:SIGCOV is met. Thsmi002 (talk) 01:38, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. Comfortably passes GNG. The Drover&#39;s Wife (talk) 03:48, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 05:09, 10 January 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep: There were "THOUSANDS of people" is slightly misleading; there were 324 passengers in the First Class. Reading through these headline coverage from the Washington Post and the Evening World at the time, it would be unfair to call these coverage "trivial mention"; significant coverage does not need to the main topic. One argument may be that these newspaper are trying to cover the narrative of survival, but I wouldn't imagine a non-notable person could receive interview from several major publishers; the Evening World source presumably describes Young's connection to the Roosevelt family to establish her credibility. Alex Shih (talk) 05:16, 10 January 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.