Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mario Ostojić


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. There is a general agreement that the subject fails both WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTY. If there is a change in the consensus that the Bosnian league isn't fully professional, then this deletion can be reviewed. Note, however, that the league must be shown to be professional at the time that Ostojić was playing; even if the league itself changes its position on amateur players at some point in the future, that won't affect the decision here. — Mr. Stradivarius  (have a chat) 09:42, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Mario Ostojić

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Recreation of an article previously deleted by PROD. Concern was Article about a footballer who fails WP:GNG and who has not played in a fully pro league. This remains valid. Sir Sputnik (talk) 10:24, 24 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Sir Sputnik (talk) 10:25, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

The player played for NK Čelik Zenica and FK Crvena Zvezda Belgrade which are professional clubs and are playing in their professional leagues. What seems to be the problem? Eborg 12:44, 24 August 2012 (GMT)


 * The Bosnian Premier League is not fully professional, see WP:FPL, and he did not play any games for Red Star Belgrade making it not relevant to notability. Sir Sputnik (talk) 11:04, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

I am not sure what are the arguments presented on the link provided since some of them are completely irrelevant. I am highly knowledgeable about the issues concerning Bosnian football and the first two tiers of the Bosnian football pyramid (Bosnian Premijer liga together with Prva liga Federacije and Prva liga Republike Srpske) are completely professional and have been like that since 1994 when the Bosnian football leagues were restarted. Most of the relevant clubs previously played in the Yugoslav First Division and have been fully professional for 40+ years now. What kind of written proof do you need? Eborg 14:10, 24 August 2012 (GMT)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.  • Gene93k (talk) 16:18, 24 August 2012 (UTC)
 * What's required are reliable sources confirming that all footballers who play in the Bosnian Premier League, except maybe youth players, are paid sufficiently well to not require other jobs and explaining why the source currently listed at WP:FPL is incorrect. Sir Sputnik (talk) 23:51, 24 August 2012 (UTC)

Do you have a suggestion on what kind of reliable sources are needed? It feels really ridiculous to even discuss this so I don't know where to start. Most footballers are paid several times more than the average wage in Bosnia & Herzegovina. Eborg 14:10, 26 August 2012 (GMT)
 * Delete as per the nomination.--Juristicweb (talk) 23:36, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete - fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. GiantSnowman 10:01, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Looking at some of these sources provided - I can provide the same thing. For example - for the Croatian league there is the "Rules for the status of players" document from the FA. The same document named "Rules for registration, status and transfers of players" with almost the same rules can be found on this link: http://www.nfsbih.net/pdf/RST.pdf which was published by the Bosnian FA. Both documents confirm the existence of professional players. Therefore, I believe that the Bosnian league(s) should be added to the list so this issue will not arise in the future as the document confirms the professionality in the same way it does for Croatia for example. Eborg 20:19, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The fact that the Bosnian league is professional is not in dispute. What is needed is full professionalism, as is outlined above. The source listed also mentions amateur players. If the source use for listing the Croatian league is inadequate, it should be reviewed on its own merits and not be used to justify the inclusion of further inadequate sources. Sir Sputnik (talk) 21:59, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Both sources just say that there is a possibility for a player to be registered as an amateur. In practice, that is only used to circumvent the transfer fees to their previous clubs since a club signing a young player on a professional contract should pay a transfer fee due to the fact that that would be his first professional contract. In practice, such players are being paid as professionals on a separate contract. Out of cca. 350 players in the Premijer liga, there are 4 cases like this. All other players are on professional contract. It may be raised as an issue in the future as it is clearly a legal issue but for now it does not change the fact that the league is fully professional since there isn't a single player in the league having a second job, both due to the fact that there is no need and no time. This happens in Croatia, Serbia, Montenegro and FYR Macedonia as well and I am pretty sure it is not uncommon in other Eastern European countries (Romania has something similar for example regarding contracts). I am saying all this since I am legally trained in the area of sports so the issues do not affect the professionalization of the sport in Bosnia & Herzegovina. Eborg 12:51, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete – there is no proof that the Bosnian top league is fully professional, thus the player fails WP:NFOOTY. Fails WP:GNG as well. – Kosm  1  fent  11:08, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
 * As I've stated above, none of this carries any weight without reliable sources to confirm it. Sir Sputnik (talk) 11:09, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, as I've said before - what proof IS needed? The one provided (which is the same as for Croatia AND Slovenia with identical rules - check them yourself) is obviously not enough. The one for Serbia is just a website that mentions a professional league without any proof and the source for Macedonia is actually saying that the players WERE NOT registered as professionals. I'm not raising this just for the sake of this single player but because I intend to heavily contribute to the sections on Bosnian football in the future from my big archive on Bosnian football. But what would be the point then if my every future contribution will be deleted like this and the proof is identical to the ones already provided but in this case, not accepted? Eborg 13:26, 30 August 2012 (UTC) 
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Relisting comment: The discussion is leaning towards deletion, but the main reason for deletion depends on an original list of "fully professional" teams compiled by Wikipedians. I'm thus keeping this open for another week to invite further discussion.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Deryck C. 17:17, 31 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete - the list of fully pro leauges is indeed made up by Wikipedians, and have weaknesses. But if I'm not mistaken, this guy have played 1 match on a team that plays in the 32nd best league in Europe (according to the 2012 UEFA Country Ranking) and might be fully pro, but there is no significant coverage about him. Even if the Bosnian league was included in the list of fully pro leauges, this article should be deleted as he fails WP:GNG. Mentoz86 (talk) 13:25, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

That is not the main issue. Mario Ostojić is retired and the article is about a former football player and director of football. However, the main "problem" is the classification of the Bosnian league as being "non-professional" when it clearly is when the same (or better) sources are provided to prove otherwise compared to other leagues. Another one of my articles was also nominated for deletion on the same grounds for a young player that has played for the U-19 national team, made several appearances last season and added more at the start of this season. He is young, doesn't have a "real" job or doesn't go to university, he just plays football for a living - clearly a professional player in a fully professional league. Eborg 16:47, 1 September 2012 (UTC)


 * Delete - The level at which Mario Ostojić played football merely is one indication of whether reliable sources will have written biographical information about him. Believe it or not, Wikipedia has articles on people who didn't even play football! That's because Wikipedia merely is a writing based publisher of information and uses significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject from which to draw that information. If Wikipedia were a reward based publisher of information, then it would directly matter whether Ostojić played professional football. What it comes down to is that, without enough reliable source material from which to draw material and write the Mario Ostojić Wikipedia article, there won't be enought text in the the Mario Ostojić Wikipedia article to justify a stand alone article. The topic does not meet WP:GNG. -- Uzma Gamal (talk) 12:01, 7 September 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.