Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Maris the Great


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. –MuZemike 23:20, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

Maris the Great

 * – ( View AfD View log )

sounds promotional, conflict of interest serioushat 14:19, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 15:23, 14 December 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment. Article is about a promotional performance artist based in Denver, Colorado, and "undead" frontman for the punk rock band, Maris the Great and the Faggots of Death. - Smerdis of Tlön - killing the human spirit since 2003! 15:23, 14 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. As the original contributor to the page, I'd like to note that I'm a big fan of Maris and also a creative writer who tends to focus on entertaining rather than journalistic writing.  Because of this, I expected some of the wording would be edited if Wikipedia felt the sources didn't justify the use of adjectives.  However, I'm surprised it is up for deletion.  Of the 19 times I cited a reference, 10 of them are major independent sources, both national and local.  Five are direct links to media listed in the Videography and Appearances sections to support that those videos and appearances are valid.  Only four are sources associated with the subject.  Two are to support that the notable bands listed as appearing on his website actually appeared there.  One was for information on his back story, which is fictional material best sourced from its creator.  The last came from the promoter for the venue where Maris did some of his shows.  I used it because it gave the most detailed description I could find of a Maris the Great show. Bogeycat (talk) 01:40, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. There are ample independent sources to support the notability of the subject.  Most if not all of them are reliable according to Wikipedia's standards, including Rue Morgue Magazine, Westword, and Brave Words & Bloody Knuckles.  The few references to self-published sources were used properly. The subject of the article is best known for his website, and it is included to verify what it is said to contain. I concur that the tone is probably not formal enough, but this can be fixed with editing and doesn't require deletion of the whole page.  If someone were willing to point out specific problems (preferably after reading the publications they were sourced from), I would be more than happy to attempt a rewrite. Bogeycat (talk) 01:40, 15 December 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment. Yikes. The entire article needs to be re-written for neutrality. Bogeycat, if you wrote any of the non-neutral sections of the article, I highly urge you to visit WP:NPOV and WP:PROMOTION to see what is and is not acceptable as far as phrasing and tone of articles go. From what I can see, the entire article needs to be re-written for neutrality. Wikipedia is not a fansite. Tokyogirl79 (talk) 04:21, 15 December 2011 (UTC)tokyogirl79
 * Additional. I noticed that some of the references merely state what magazine the quote supposedly came from rather than actually list which article, which issue, or any specifics about when the quotes actually came about. You need just a little more info than that, to be honest. It helps, but you need more than just "Maris was talked about in some random issue of Mayhem". Also, be aware that as far as sources go, anything that is put out by anyone that has a vested interest in seeing Maris succeed (such as a promoter for a venue Maris performs in) cannot be a reliable source. I'm also worried that you might have copied from the venue site, so I'll be checking into that. Copying from any source is not allowed. Quotes are fine, but be careful of turning the article into a WP:QUOTEFARM.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 04:26, 15 December 2011 (UTC)Tokyogirl79
 * Ah. I see what you did there. Late night for me, I guess.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 05:52, 15 December 2011 (UTC)tokyogirl79
 * Additional Additional. Youtube is not generally considered to be a reliable source because anyone can upload a video and the copyright there is sort of iffy. For the most part the only times I've seen youtube used as a reliable source is when it's linked to a known uploader (such as BBC or CNN) and is a news story about the person or subject in question. In this case you just link to a music video. This is not considered to be a reliable source because it just proves that the video exists. The video existing does not infer notability. I also highly urge you to read WP:RS. Also, anything that only briefly mentions Maris is not considered to be a reliable source that shows notability, nor does anything that just quotes him or any routine notifications of upcoming performances. I also want to note that you should always write an article in an encyclopedic tone. Never assume that someone will come around and edit after you for the article to be more encyclopedic or neutral. While this can often be the case, especially in very visible articles, there are articles on Wikipedia that are created and then gone unnoticed and untouched for years. Always edit with the assumption that your article will be deleted and/or tagged for various issues because it just might. When in doubt, always ask for help. Even if it's a note on the page of another user, ask for help if you aren't sure if the article is written correctly or that something might not be properly done. Tokyogirl79 (talk) 04:30, 15 December 2011 (UTC)tokyogirl79


 * Keep. While I was in the process of cleaning up the article, I also checked out the links and removed the ones that aren't considered reliable sources. It does seem that Maris is notable. A niche performer, to be sure, but notable within his niche. The article should be far more encyclopedic now, so the promotional issue should be solved for the most part. As far as conflict of issue goes, if Bogeycat is related to Maris in any shape other than just being a fan (since someone did mention a COI), I recommend that she or he goes through another party to add anything to the article, most preferably through WikiProject Music since they're most familiar with writing music related articles. I'm willing to help too, if needs be.Tokyogirl79 (talk) 06:01, 15 December 2011 (UTC)tokyogirl79
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.