Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marisa Lazo


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete.  So Why  17:42, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

Marisa_Lazo
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This individual was arrested for crane climbing, she is not notable for any other event and the article focuses on this one event. Additionally, there some of the references used to justify the article are based on op-ed not evidence. CommotioCerebri (talk) 12:41, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Canada-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 13:06, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 13:06, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU (T) 13:09, 9 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete - WP:BLP1E. The event does not seem notable, either. --bonadea contributions talk 13:43, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Keep -- I believe both nominator, and contributor have fallen into a common misconception, addressed in the well respected essay WP:Arguments to avoid.  Specifically, it can be hard not to have a personal opinion on some of the topics on which we have articles.  But we don't delete or retain articles based on our personal opinion on their notability.  Rather notability is, usually, established when reliable sources write about a topic, in detail.  Lazo's thrill-seeking did not just attract considerable attention to her act, itself, it triggered wider discussions.
 * 1) Reliable sources speculated she was the trigger for copycat thrill-seekers.
 * 2) Reliable sources used the readiness of emergency personnel as a justification for taxation.
 * 3) Her thrill-seeking triggered a discussion of mental health issues.
 * It is significant coverage, by reliable sources, that establishes notability, and, in a case like this, where coverage transcends the event, it is best for our coverage to be about the individual, not the event. Geo Swan (talk) 16:45, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * I am very sure that I did not mention anything about my personal opinion about this, especially since I don't have one (I fully agree that many of the topics covered in Wikipedia are hard not to have opinions on - this is not one of those, not for me) so please don't speculate about other people's motives. :-) I just don't think that the person meets Wikipedia's notability criteria, but if other people interpret the criteria differently, the article should obviously be kept, per WP:CONSENSUS. Subjects that are known for one event only should ideally have some kind of lasting impact, and I do not believe that that is shown in this article. (I do love the source about taxes, I think it's wonderfully well written and it articulates my own opinion on tax paying beautifully. I still don't think it is useful as a source in a BLP!) --bonadea contributions talk 17:09, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 21:56, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Ontario-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 22:50, 10 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete. I live a whopping one mile further down the same street as the incident, so I remember it quite well — but this is a WP:BLP1E, about a person whose notability and reliable source coverage derives at this point from a single incident. The sources shown here certainly point toward the possibility of a concept article about the phenomenon of crane climbing, in which she can certainly be briefly discussed as an example of the phenomenon in action — but they do not support a standalone WP:BLP of her as a person. Even if this were to be kept, it would need to be moved to an event title rather than her name, because even people who did expect an article about this incident to exist know and remember it as "that woman who climbed the crane" — the number of people who know and would search for it by her name, rather than as "Toronto crane climbing incident" or something of that ilk, is literally as close to zero as one can get without falling afoul of "never say never". (I will grant, for example, that Marisa herself, and her friends and family, know and remember her name — but literally almost nobody who doesn't know her personally knows and remembers the incident by that nomenclature.) Bearcat (talk) 16:15, 11 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete  WP:NOTNEWS.     Article also has a troublingly  WP:PROMO aspect (they call her "crane girl."  Seriously? Me, I would give this young idiot a Darwin award and put her to work cleaning latrines on construciton sites for a semester or two.)  Fails to meet WP:EVENTCRITERIA:  WP:GEOSCOPE, WP:CONTINUEDCOVERAGE, WP:DIVERSE, or WP:LASTING.  And fails WP:BIO.E.M.Gregory (talk) 12:00, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * So, I created crane climbing (a stub). It turns out that there is an awful lot of this happening, albeit Lazo may have been the stupedist: the other people who climb up seem to know how to climb down. There is at least one crane climber, a Brit named James Kingston (stuntman) who works as a stuntman in films, who could probably support an article. But there have been so many of them in recent years that I am not at all sure the act of climbing a crane merits inclusion in a list.  I can find no other articles about such stunts, although they all seem to have brief bursts of local coverage similar to this Toronto climber and there has been at least one death.  To me, this seem rather like the quarry diving of my misspent youth.  Dangerous, daredevil stuff.  Fairly high rate of broken necks.  When you break your neck and the fire department has to show up to to dredge your body out of the quarry it  makes the local papers.  I will leave it to others to decide whether adding a list to  crane climbing makes sense.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:29, 12 June 2017 (UTC)
 * , NOTNEWS has four numbered points: (1) Original reporting; (2) News reports; (3) Who's who; (4) A diary. The article on Lazo is clearly not 1, 3 or 4.  Is it an instance of a summary of simple, news reporting, non-notable news reporting?  No.  As I explained above, Lazo's excursion triggered a cascade of discussion the role of taxation in governance, and the role of thrill-seekers in public governance.  So, your call on the authority of NOTNEWS, in this discussion, is completely misplaced.  WRT your perception the article has a "troubling PROMO aspect"...  For this to have a genuine PROMO aspect, wouldn't I have to have some kind of close association with Lazo?  Did you really mean to suggest I had an association with Lazo?  For the record I don't.  I don't know her.  I am not myself a thrill-seeker.  Let's be clear.  Even if, for the sake of argument, the current state of the article lapsed from PROMO, that would not be grounds for deletion, so long as the topic, Marisa Lazo measured up to our inclusion criteria.  Before you list a bunch of questionable links to genuine wikidocuments you wrote: "...they call her "crane girl." Seriously? Me, I would give this young idiot a Darwin award and put her to work cleaning latrines on construciton sites for a semester or two..."  You and nominator agree in having a personal distaste for Lazo.  Nominator called her a petty criminal.  You called her a young idiot.  A wikipedia article is neither a punishment, or a reward.  We cover people when they measure up to our notability criteria.  Period.  Whether you or nominator disapprove of her character, or her judgment is completely irrelevant, since RS wrote about her.  RS not only wrote about her, but they wrote about her in a way that transcends BLP1E -- for instance the Globe and Mail article where the distinguished professor of Psychology writes about whether Lazo is the poster child for the Type T thrill-seeker personality syndrome.  I am going to repeat this point, because it is important.  Your personal dislike for Lazo has no place in this discussion.  Geo Swan (talk) 04:56, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Where have I ever said that I have a personal dislike for this individual? It seems like you would rather attack people (see the talk page for this article) rather than discuss things? I may be new but have done a ton of research about how Wikipedia works. Please remove your inaccurate assumptions about me. CommotioCerebri (talk) 15:44, 16 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Didn't you state Lazo didn't merit coverage here, because she was simply someone "accused of being a petty criminal". The seriousness or triviality of an accusation is irrelevant, when RS coverage are extensive enough to establish notability.  In Lazo's case it is not just the basic facts of her excursion that are covered, but transcendant coverage that offers Lazo as an archetypical example.  For the record, the civil expression of disagreement is not a personal attack.  Geo Swan (talk) 01:28, 18 June 2017 (UTC)


 * Delete - WP:BLP1E seems clear on this matter. -- Wgsimon (talk) 09:01, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
 * Delete as classic WP:BLP1E.  I have read Geo Swan's comments, and to the extend that they address notability I do not find them compelling enough to ignore the guidelines. In fact, I find that deletion of this article will improve the Wikipedia, and that work on the Crane climbing article would be beneficial in lieu of personalities.  No redirect to Crane climbing, although it is possible that one of the reliable sources from this article might contribute content to the article, I see no need to mention specific climbers in that article, absent independent notability. --Bejnar (talk) 20:04, 17 June 2017 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.