Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mark Bywater


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was  delete. Jayjg (talk) 02:10, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Mark Bywater

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

Master plumber and lecturer who doesn't obviously meet WP:NOTABILITY - per WP:NOTNEWS - he's only received two mentions in local newspapers, and the link to the BBC website doesn't work. The creator has argued that Bywater meets WP:ACADEMIC and presumably also WP:ANYBIO, because he has "The person has received a highly prestigious academic award or honor at a national or international level." I'm not sure whether becoming a "Master Plumber" qualifies as an academic award or honour, because plumbing is a skilled trade, not an academic discipline. Claritas (talk) 15:37, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * DELETE - not notable by any Wikipedia standard. I don't see any evidence of a highly prestigious award, nor of national or international recognition. This is a plumber who has taught at a small non-notable FE college for the past seven years. Every FE college in the country has a plumbing teacher. Master plumber is a trade qualification with criteria that any competent tradesperson should be able to achieve after 10 years in the business - there are already more than 150 other master plumbers in the UK. While this number may seem small, the awarding body CIPHE has only had its charter for a short time and more masters are being given this trade qualification as they submit their paperwork.  --Simple Bob (talk) 15:47, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep – The person meets the basic criteria:
 * WP:NOTABILITY —Preceding unsigned comment added by KingOfTheLynn (talk • contribs) 16:51, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * WP:BASIC – A person is presumed to be notable if he or she has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject.
 * He is also notable by at least one of the following additional criteria:
 * WP:ANYBIO – The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times.
 * WP:TEACH – The person has received a highly prestigious academic award or honor at a national or international level.
 * And may meet criteria for:
 * WP:TEACH – The person has held a major highest-level elected or appointed academic post at an academic institution or major academic society.
 * WP:CREATIVE – The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by their peers or successors.
 * WP:DIPLOMAT – Diplomats who have participated in a significant way in events of particular diplomatic importance that have been written about in reliable secondary sources.
 * WP:DIPLOMAT – Although diplomats often participate in issues of significant diplomatic importance without receiving specific individual coverage, sufficient reliable documentation of their role is required.
 * The article meets all three cardinal content policies states on WP:Guide to deletion:
 * WP:Neutral point of view
 * WP:Verifiability
 * WP:No original research
 * – KingOfTheLynn (talk) 16:55, 26 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Weak keep I actually give some stock to the credential that there are only 160 or so "Master Plumbers" in the entire United Kingdom, and that he has received coverage in a variety of sources. I see no reason why a plumber could not have an article on Wikipedia for being a plumber, particularly if that person has achieved notability among plumbers.  Mandsford 17:44, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete I really want to say keep, but the notability of the reward (even though it is from a association recognized in law) is iffy, if it was rewarded for excellence instead of for time practicing it would be more convincing. If he had worked on some sort of restoration that was covered in the news or something like that I would say yes (there is a Mark Bywater covered on BBC but it's a different guy). Columnists for Fine Homebuilding have more notability than this guy currently.--Savonneux (talk) 23:02, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
 * KEEP I think this article should be kept. I'm uncertain if he meets WP:ACADEMIC. But there is no question that he obviously meets the requirements to have an article as per:
 * WP:ANYBIO – The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for one several times.


 * I work in the Plumbing profession and believe that the title of Master Plumber is awarded to people who have met certain criteria's and are members of certain organisations, such as the The Guild of Master Plumbers, and how long they are in the plumbing industry is just one of the many criteria needed to become awarded. There are many others. This award is almost the equivalent to a knighthood for a plumber and is highly prestigious.


 * The award is national as it is only available within the UK and is highly noted within both the plumbing and education professions.


 * After reviewing the article. I feel that as this person has traveled to Germany to negotiate about an international partnership, and negotiated with other representatives from a French school. I feel that he may also meet the criteria for:


 * WP:DIPLOMAT – Diplomats who have participated in a significant way in events of particular diplomatic importance that have been written about in reliable secondary sources.

– DevDevDevon (talk) 00:23, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

— DevDevDevon (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * Comment He's not a diplomat or any sort of diplomatic representative. Claritas (talk) 07:19, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment – He has been appointed by the College of West Anglia, one of the largest colleges in East Anlgia, to represent it and establish an international academic link with colleges in difference countries as part of the Comenius project, an international programme established by the European Union. In conclusion, he is representing an establishment as part of an international program, a type of diplomacy.
 * – KingOfTheLynn (talk) 15:05, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment According to this web page on the CIPHE site, and discounting general academic criteria (none of which requires being published), it would appear that the only significant criteria required are:
 * that the applicant has been engaged in the industry for at least 10 years
 * that there are no significant complaints on the applicant's Institute record
 * that two nominated referees sign the application
 * I might add that knighthoods below a certain rank are generally non notable ISMs, MBEs and OBEs for example, simply because they are rewarded for terms of service rather than notable accomplishments, that and there are well over 12,000 living recipients (there is no guideline on this since it's usually brought up on per afd basis, I'm pretty horrible at searching archives but here is an example .--Savonneux (talk) 11:58, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


 * Comment – You also forgot to mention the following minimum criteria:
 * that they are a Member (MCIPHE) or Fellow (FCIPHE) of the CIPHE and also hold the description of 'Registered Plumber';
 * To become a member of CIPHE, they must meet the following minimum criteria:
 * at college as a student or lecturer
 * a plumbing designer, consultant or engineer for a manufacturer or merchant

Source: CIPHE
 * that they are qualified to City & Guilds Advanced Craft Level or S/NVQ Level 3 or equivalent and be accepted for City & Guilds Licentiateship;
 * To become accepted for City & Guilds Licentiateship, they must meet the following minimum criteria:
 * a level 3 pass
 * a further career qualification
 * five years experience at supervisory or first line management level subsequent to your level 3 pass.

Source: City & Guilds
 * that they are registered with ECuk at either Engineering Technician/ Incoporated Engineer or Chartered Engineer level;
 * that they conform to the CIPHE's Code of Professional Standards while in membership of the Institute;
 * 1. Perform professionally, competently and responsibly
 * Carry out their own work or supervise the work of others with due regard to technical quality, appropriate insurance cover and the interests of employers, employees and clients; communicating and performing to an acceptable standard; and with a duty of care to employers, employees and clients.
 * 2. Safeguard the environment and public health and safety
 * Take all reasonable care to avoid damaging the environment or creating any danger of death, injury or ill-health to any person or damage to property.
 * 3. Comply with all relevant laws, regulations, standards and codes
 * Work in accordance with the relevant statutory requirements and conform to the appropriate European and British Standards Codes of Practice. In the case of Fellows and Members, registered with the ECUK, also conforming to that Council’s Codes of Professional Practice.
 * 4. Broaden, improve and maintain their skills, knowledge and personal qualities
 * Keep up-to-date with developments in the plumbing mechanical engineering services industry by attending and participating in Continuing Professional Development (CPD) and other relevant training activities.
 * 5. Uphold the dignity, standing and reputation of the Institute and the plumbing mechanical engineering services industry
 * Act professionally and adopt a form of behaviour and appearance that will not cause offence or embarrassment to others. To maintain the Institute’s good name and that of the industry generally, members in the course of their work are expected to act professionally and adopt a form of behaviour and appearance that will not cause offence or embarrassment to others.
 * 6. Abide by the Code of Professional Standards
 * Accept responsibilities as a member to comply and co-operate with the Institute in the operation of its disciplinary procedures and any investigation that may occur as a result.

Source: CIPHE
 * – KingOfTheLynn (talk) 16:25, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Academics and educators-related deletion discussions.  -- • Gene93k (talk) 15:10, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete. Only minor local coverage, no significant honors and awards. Does not pass WP:BIO and no evidence of passing any of the criteria of WP:PROF. Nsk92 (talk) 15:17, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete - non-notable, despite strenuous efforts to spin. (The attempt to class him as a diplomat is beyond bizarre). HeartofaDog (talk) 22:11, 27 May 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment – Why is it bizarre? As I mentioned previously.
 * He has been appointed by the College of West Anglia, one of the largest colleges in East Anlgia, to represent it and establish an international academic link with colleges in difference countries as part of the Comenius project, an international programme established by the European Union. In conclusion, he is representing an establishment as part of an international program, a type of diplomacy.
 * – KingOfTheLynn (talk) 15:05, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete Hard to see how he would qualify as notable. He has not had significant news coverage except very local; apparently his overseas trips did not generate any press. As an "academic" he gets zero hits at Google Scholar; merely teaching classes does not qualify one as notable. --MelanieN (talk) 02:43, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment – The references are regional, not local. Wikipedia requires that for an article about a person to be credible, the person must be the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject. The Heinrich-Hertz-Berufskolleg did cover the event, but I do not have a direct link to the article as it is part of a feed that only shows the most recent events. I have contacted the college asking if they could provide me with their press release.
 * – KingOfTheLynn (talk) 15:05, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete. It's clear that he doesn't pass WP:PROF, and the only thing we can find sufficient reliable sources about is the single fact that Mark Bywater was awarded the title of master plumber, as spammed across half a dozen or so local newspapers. The title itself doesn't seem particularly impressive, and per WP:LOCAL: "Evidence of attention by international or national, or at least regional, media is a strong indication of notability. On the other hand, attention solely from local media, or media of limited interest and circulation, is not an indication of notability." WP:LOCAL is more about places than people but I think the same principle applies. —David Eppstein (talk) 21:02, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete, does not pass WP:PROF. Please also note that is highly likely to be a sock of . Their editing patterns are nearly identical and Old Shadow even took credit for adding an image to an article that KingOfTheLynn uploaded (which I'll now be deleting as a copyvio). This sock may have been created to evade the obvious scrutiny that comes with creating an article about your father/relative/etc. --Spike Wilbury (talk) 22:07, 2 June 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.