Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mark Persick


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was delete all. Sr13 02:28, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Mark Persick

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

Non notable semi-professional Ice Hockey players. Does not meet WP:BIO for athletes in that they do not play in a fully professional competition nor at the highest possible amateur level. That the competition (Australian Ice Hockey League) is notable and the team (Canberra Knights) may be notable do not automatically make the players notable. The article has no sources independent of the club and league. Mattinbgn/talk 05:39, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I am also nominating the following related pages for the same reason:
 * -- Mattinbgn/talk 05:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * -- Mattinbgn/talk 05:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * -- Mattinbgn/talk 05:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Australia-related deletions.  -- Mattinbgn/talk 05:41, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Abstain, leaning keep for now. Seems to be a bit of a loophole in the guideline.  The league that he plays in is not "fully professional" but is the highest-level hockey league in Australia?   Question Doesn't that squeeze this in between the highest amateur league and a fully professional?  Montco 05:53, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete based on evidence here that players are non-notable. Montco 02:36, 14 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I think the guideline was written in that form for a deliberate reason. Ice Hockey (as we call it in Australia) is not a major sport and is not played at a fully professional standard.  Keeping this article would be similar to keeping an article on a player in a Canadian Australian rules football team.  For me, the highest amateur level in Ice Hockey (although this is not totally amateur any more) would be the Olympics, although I am not an expert on the sport by any means. The only articles on Australian ice hockey players I would contemplate keeping are those that have represented Australia in a formal international tournament.-- Mattinbgn/talk 06:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Weak Delete I don't see the highest level of a sport being located in a specific country... the top amateur league of lichtenstein doesn't equate to notable or the highest levels. Likewise the highest level of Australian Ice Hockey is not the highest level of amateur sports. But I am willing to entertain the notion that college sports on an NCAA division I level are the highest level of amateur sports in ice hockey.Balloonman 06:38, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment That and, you know, maybe the Olympics? Nick mallory 07:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete Ice hockey is a totally inconsequential (and amateur) sport in Australia.--Grahamec 11:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The olympics are definately the highest level of amateur sports---but I don't consider every sport to be the highest level... I mean, if they were playing at the highest level they would be where the sport is taken seriously. I mean, somebody playing in the U.S. of A. Cricket team isn't playing at the highest level of cricket.Balloonman 14:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Keep We have to be objective about this. The guideline states that competing at the highest level in a sport makes you notable, and on the evidence, that seems to be the case here. Whilst I would like to vote delete, we have to be consistent. Assize 12:22, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete All: Just FYI, we have a set of notability standards over at the Ice Hockey WikiProject that could bear on these players. Under those standards, players who'd played for several seasons in the Australian league would qualify, as well as those who won "preeminent" honors in either NCAA college play or the AIHL.  These four are neither; they were spearcarriers in college and have relatively meager stats in Aussie play.    RGTraynor  14:47, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Don't they qualify under dot point 3 "Played one or more games in an amateur league considered, through lack of a professional league, the highest level of competition extant" which seems to be the case of the Australian league. He may a bench warmer in the USA, but he plays in the Australian league. As I read Persick's stats, he has played 6 games in Oz which makes him notable under WP:BIO. Subjectively, ice hockey is a non-event in Australia and I would prefer to delete this article, but Wikipedia is not about subjective matters, only facts. WP:BIO obviously needs to be changed. Assize 13:14, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply: No. That was specifically intended to address the pre-professional era in hockey, when everyone played in amateur leagues, or the Communist era in Eastern Europe, when top-ranked players weren't permitted to play professionally.  A third-tier league like the AIHL would fall in the US college or the CHL/UHL bracket, requiring preeminent honors to qualify ... and frankly, that's a bit generous.  These players, by contrast, look like relative scrubs by Aussie standards.    RGTraynor  23:19, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * I think we will have to differ on this. The Aussie league never turned professional, so they are at highest level in Australia, even if they are "relative scrubs". Even the Aussie Handball team had their day in the 2000 Olympics and would end up notable under WP:BIO. Anyway, it doesn't matter, this AfD isn't a debate, it's just a subjective vote on whether we think the topic is interesting enough to keep in Wikipedia, so it will end up deleted. Assize 12:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Well ... being the one who drafted the criteria for the hockey Wikiproject, I'm fairly comfy with my take on what was meant by it, but as you say, the point's relatively moot.   RGTraynor  12:40, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete it doesn't qualify under the 'above' mentioned notability standards. GoodDay 16:40, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete all per RGTraynor . Edison 17:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete All per RGTraynor. --Djsasso 18:27, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete preferably all 4, but 3 outta 4 will be okay too, per RGTraynor, this player just doesn't register in my neural-database. Croat Canuck  Go Leafs Go 20:35, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete₰Google News Archives comes up with some results mainly from his college career. . As expected, there is no information about his career at the Knights which isn't surprising as they get very little coverage. . Capitalistroadster 03:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete All per RGTraynor. Pparazorback 22:58, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Delete All If we started keeping these, then quite a large percentage of people in the country could have their very own wikipages. Recurring dreams 09:06, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Weap Keep Persick
 * Persick played last year in the Nederlandse IJshockey Bond which is the top level for the Netherlands (and a fully pro-league I think). That puts him as a top-level hockey-player in 2 countries.ColtsScore 14:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Weak Delete Habbib
 * Doesn't seem to be a top-player in the Aussie league, very few articles about his college career, more than 1/4 of the hits Google coughs up are things where he's mentioned in articles about his sister.ColtsScore 14:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Weak Keep Farrer
 * Farrer also played in the Nederlandse IJshockey Bond. Also, the article should be moved to "Steve Farrer" because I don't think Stever is his name. Nothing comes up on google for "Stever", and everything else has "Steve". ColtsScore 14:01, 12 June 2007 (UTC)


 * Weak Delete Fiveash
 * Google only comes up with stuff from the Aussie team web-sites, his myspace profile, and a mention in an article on his team on a site devoted to the Aussie league. He doesn't appear to meet WP:BIO requirements for secondary sources ColtsScore 14:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Do you have a source for Persick and Farrer playing in Nederlandse IJshockey Bond? John Vandenberg 06:25, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Farrer is mentioned in this NHL.com article as playing in the Dutch league. Yes, I'm sure it's the same player because here is the www.eurohockey.net page listing his trade. I've added sources to Persick's article for where I got his player stats. Also, do a search for Dutch web-pages that include his name, and you get all these. Have fun plugging some of the URLS into a web-page translator 'cause some of the results are pretty strange : ) ColtsScore 10:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment, excellent point Recurring dreams, in fact probably every fourth Canadian could have their own article if we kept these. Croat Canuck  Go Leafs Go 20:55, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.