Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mark Redshaw (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. I don't see any point in stringing out an AfD where no reliable sources have been provided whatsoever to prove the player passes WP:BIO for sportspeople, and nearly every Keep has come from a confirmed sockfarm. If anyone can provide hard evidence that Redshaw has ever played for a fully professional club at a national level, then please provide it and the article can be fixed. Until then, I see no point in more disruption. Black Kite 16:59, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Mark Redshaw
AfDs for this article: 
 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

Contested prod. Original reason for deletion was "This article is completely unreferenced, and the only link that is provided is to a subscription-only site. There is no evidence in any Manchester United-related sources that this boy ever played for them, which therefore casts the truthfulness of the whole article into doubt." This article has previously been deleted on suspicion of being a hoax laced with slivers of truth. Still no evidence can be found that the player ever went on trial with Los Angeles Galaxy. Basically, it reads like a CV, and I have massive suspicions that the author of the article is either Redshaw himself or one of his friends. – PeeJay 10:46, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. GiantSnowman 11:33, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete the player does exist, but has not played at a high enough level to meet WP:ATHLETE. A quick search of the Post War English & Scottish Football League A - Z Player's Database confirms he never made a senior league appearance for Man Utd OR Wrexham, and this site has him playing for Wrexham in the FA Youth Cup only. This site confirms he made 2 sub appearances for Caernarfon Town in 2004–05, while the Bolton News describes him as a "Former Manchester United youngster" who played non-league football for Rossendale United, and had trials in Italy. The only sources relating to his MLS career mention him playing in a friendly game for FC Dallas before being released before the 2007 season started; there is no mention of him making a pro appearance for LA Galaxy. GiantSnowman 11:41, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * KEEP Please visit [www.SoccerAssociation.com] it has all info on players and is a professional website what scouts coaches and professional people to do with football use.  You will find it as Mark Redshaws information on there so I dont understand why you would look on non-professional websites to decide on players pasts, he is also currently playing in Greece now which is a very high level of football. (LLC) also why would you take the player off the current squad list on Ethnikos Piraeus I dont understand this situation the lad plays in Greece now for Ethnikos he signed on the 22nd of January and if you just look on professional websites like www.SoccerAssociation.com  you would see this. Thanks.  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ll coolio ggg (talk • contribs) 13:12, 21 March 2009 (UTC)  sorry= --Ll coolio ggg (talk) 13:16, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: Above user blocked for sockpuppetry. J.delanoy gabs adds  23:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Player currently playing in Greece for Ethnikos Piraeus at professional level. --ETH.P...4eva! (talk) 13:31, 21 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete Athlete does not meet notability per WP:ATHLETE. Fredrik • Wilhelm U|T|C 13:35, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Thankyou for that last comment now if everyone else would go on the professional site ive told them to then they would see the truith about the player. --Ll coolio ggg (talk) 13:47, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep Just went on the website SoccerAssociation to check this out and the player actually is currently playing for Ethnikos Piraeus. On the players history page aswell he has played for the teams mentioned in the wikipedia page. --Boozzzzzboo11111 (talk) 13:43, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: Above user blocked for sockpuppetry. J.delanoy gabs adds  23:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

also everyone who wants to keep this article I sergest you change it from save to keep!
 * Keep Im a member of the SoccerAssociation website and have been for quite some time, it is the best website in the world for looking for information on professional football players. On SoccerAssociation its has Mark Redshaw currently playing in Greece for Ethnikos Piraeus and also has the clubs he has played for in the past and the article about him on wikipedia matches the informaton on SoccerAssociation about the teams he has played for. --Bobby bbb66 (talk) 14:07, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: Above user blocked for sockpuppetry. J.delanoy gabs adds  23:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep is currently a professional footballer playing in Greece. was a member of the Manchester United Academy and does have all the players information on the website www.soccerassciation.com. I agree with one of the other comments, it is a very good website one of the best for info on professional athletes in the world of football and clearly states the player is a professional and currently playing in Greece and the information on there matches that of this artical. --FFAS GOAL (talk) 15:32, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: Above user blocked for sockpuppetry. J.delanoy gabs adds  23:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete mostly per nom, I'd also like to advise to take down the link to the soccer association, as its obviously being used as spam since all the spas here are pumping it up like its the holy grail of soccer sites.  Them From  Space  15:35, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete. Per Nom. Kittybrewster  &#9742;  15:48, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - Article fails WP:N and WP:ATHLETE. There is no evidence that player has ever played a professional match. He's on the books of Ethnikos (and even made the bench once) but has never played in the league. No sign he ever played in a fully pro league before. Jogurney (talk) 15:53, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Ok understand what one of last person who commented is saying but the website is the most reliable source on information of professional players which is the reason why Football Clubs, Scouts and Managers use the website themselfs and it clearly states whats leagues and where Mark Redshaw HAS and is CURRENTLY playing. --Ll coolio ggg (talk) 15:58, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The soccerassociation website is not a primary source, like EPAE (the Beta Ethniki's official website). There ought to be some primary source (either EPAE or a news report) showing he actually appeared in a league match for Ethnikos. He may in the future, but we shouldn't assume it per WP:CRYSTAL. Jogurney (talk) 16:07, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * If you check the reference which you added and on the league table it is not up to date but thanks for clearing the fact that the player is a professional footballer currently playin For Ethnikos. --Ll coolio ggg (talk) 16:17, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * It's current through the 26th round (which was played from 14-16 March 2009. Do you have evidence that he played today? If not, he hasn't played for the club yet. Simply being on the books isn't enough. Jogurney (talk) 16:33, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * What I ment was it might say the dates but the points are wrong on the league and is not fully updated, check other websites on the league table like soccerway and you will see what points the teams are on and how the league table really stands, so thats what im saying about that so obviously all the players appearences wont be correct if the league table is not will it. --Ll coolio ggg (talk) 16:58, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I don't see any errors with the league table. It's correct through the 26th round. They obviously haven't updated for today's matches yet. Jogurney (talk) 17:23, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Are you being serious it clearly shows the points what the clubs have are different. If you look on the website soccerway which is free to use so dont worry, you will see that the team at the top of the league PAS Giannina are on 58 points where on the site you added there on 57 points, also second placed team PAE APS Atromitos Athens are on 57 points and on the site you added there on 55 point so this shows that it is not up to date by maybe 2 games so you expect all players info and games to be up to date, please check carefully this time, thanks.--Ll coolio ggg (talk) 17:33, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Maybe you're having trouble because the site uses Greek letters, but it clearly shows Atromitos with 57 points and PAS Giannina with 55 points, which is exactly correct as of the 26th round. Perhaps PAS won today, but like I said before they haven't updated for today's matches. This is all irrelevant as this is the league's official website, it is reliable and Redshaw had not played before today (I'm still waiting for someone to show he actually played today). Best regards. Jogurney (talk) 18:13, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Atromitos are on 58 points and second placed team PAS Giannina are on 57 points. like I said this is all irrelevant if you checked the website SoccerAssociation you would see this, the thing is your going against a web site that is designed for Professional Footballers information and like I keep repeating its what Professional clubs, scouts and Managers use but maybe you no better than these people. --Ll coolio ggg (talk) 18:31, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The EPAE.org website has been updated for this weekend's matches, and Redshaw did not play for Ethnikos (again). The article still fails WP:N and WP:ATHLETE. 12:46, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Redshaw was also playing professional football in Cyprus aswell so thats where Ethnikos Piraeus proberly seen him playing and what made them want to sign him for the club.--Bobby bbb66 (talk) 19:02, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I have just checked the website SoccerAssociation again I have just seen that it was infact Ethnikos Assia the team Redshaw played for in Cyprus not Ethnikos Achna, but he scored is first goal for the club on the 27th September against Ermis FC Aradippou in the League.--Bobby bbb66 (talk) 19:18, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * The Cypriot Second Division is not fully pro (per early AfDs), so the article still fails WP:ATHLETE (and WP:N). Jogurney (talk) 00:01, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Plays for Ethnikos Piraeus currently wears the number 9 shirt.--Deomoniared (talk) 20:52, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: Above user blocked for sockpuppetry. J.delanoy gabs adds  23:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Does anyone here smell socks? MuZemike 00:31, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes, but I thought it was too obvious to point out.  Them  From  Space  00:39, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I'm glad i wasn't the only one thinking that... Uksam88 (talk) 20:39, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete unless someone can actually come up wit ha reference supporting something of note. Fails WP:ATHLETE and WP:FOOTYN. ManU time was youth only (as supported by evidence), Wrexham appears to be only youth, no senior appearances, ditto ManC, not entirely convinced he ever played anything at all for Triestina or Galaxy. Stirling Lions is amateur - appearances therefore not generally notable, ditto Ethnikos Assia. No evidence to date of actual appearance for Ethnikos Piraeus F.C. Recreate if and when.-- Club Oranje T 09:13, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * ps. References in article are decidedly dodgy and don't support notability. Reference 1 is OK but only shows he is registered, not played, ref 2 only confirms amateur non-notable hattrick, ref 3 is a forum and therefore not WP:RS. Also agree with ThemFromSpace that soccerasscociation external link should be removed per WP:ELNO point 6 as it requires registration and payment to access data and have deleted. Have left inlines in place pending article deletion as aide to AfD, but in event article is kept, these plus various speculatives should be sanitised per WP policies.-- Club Oranje T 09:27, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * My friend Ethnikos Assia is not a amature but professional club playing in Cyprus who are registered in a professional league, look at players playing in that league there are International players from all around Europe playing there. Like you said your not confinced but has everything on the website what people high up in the game use but like I keep saying maybe you know better than these people.--Ll coolio ggg (talk) 11:37, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep currently a professional footballer. I also agree that Cyprus is a good level of football and Ethnikos Assia is a professional club playing in a professional league and clearly states the league is professional so this for me means the artical should be kept on, regards.--FFAS GOAL (talk) 15:04, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: Above user blocked for sockpuppetry. J.delanoy gabs adds  23:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Uksam88 (talk) 20:42, 22 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Note to closing admin – the accounts ETH.P...4eva!, Ll coolio ggg, Bobby bbb66, Boozzzzzboo11111, FFAS GOAL, Deomoniared, Touforevatomefor life, and W.a.f.c pie eaters have all been indefinitely blocked for sockpuppetry, as confirmed by CheckUser. See Sockpuppet investigations/ETH.P...4eva!/Archive. MuZemike 02:52, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Actually, ETH.P...4eva! is not blocked, as users are allowed to operate one account. But I suppose I'm just being picky here... J.delanoy <sup style="color:red;">gabs <sub style="color:blue;">adds  23:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete until he plays at a professional level. As I said in the previous AfD, his non-league career doesn't get a mention in the article. He was on Wrexham's books as a youth player and played in the FA Youth Cup. See match report. It seems that he was a Manchester United trainee and did also join Manchester City as a trainee. After Manchester City, he played for clubs such as Radcliffe Borough, Caernarfon Town and Rossendale United.  --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 11:58, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - does not appear to have made a first team appearance in a fully professional league (Cyprus is listed as not being a fully professional league here but if this is confirmed otherwise I will take a closer look). Camw (talk) 08:15, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * In fairness the article does mention non-league clubs and the 3 clubs you have mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.205.92 (talk • contribs)
 * I agree to some extent - they are not shown in the Infobox, nor in the "Career" section but under "Other information".  --Daemonic Kangaroo (talk) 12:00, 23 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep Cyprus is a professional level of football and is ranked in good position by FIFA in the FIFA league standings and also FIFA has it as a top level professional league. What I also dont understand is how you can have someone playing professional football but people still trying to get a artical taken off but then theres articles of players playing in non-league or Welsh leagues or other amature leagues for that matter who have never played at a high standard but it has articles of them on wikipedia, for me this means wikipedia totally contradicts itself and the rules they use.--Biggiemagic (talk) 11:42, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Above user's first ever edit
 * If you can point out other articles on players who have never played professionally, flag them up and they will most likely be nominated too -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 11:47, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes my first edit because im a FIFA Licensed Agent and was made aware of this ridiculous situation. I would also be here for hours if I had to point out other articles as well.--Biggiemagic (talk) 12:20, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Note to closing admin: I asked a checkuser, and he said that while it is possible that Biggiemagic could be the same person, it is not likely. However, they are probably connected in some way to the person who was socking. Just FYI. J.delanoy <sup style="color:red;">gabs <sub style="color:blue;">adds  23:20, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Is that not counted as meatpuppetry? – PeeJay 23:37, 23 March 2009 (UTC)
 * I seriously don't think any competent admin will give much weight, if any, to the numerous keeps above upon closure. With that said, this AFD must be under a winter weather advisory. MuZemike 03:07, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * comment. Cyprus is not listed as having a fully professinal league as generally interpreted. With a total country population smaller than many cities, even if they did have a FPL it is unlikely to extend to the second division which is where Athnikos Assia are having recently been promoted from the 3rd division.-- Club Oranje T 00:36, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete - If Redshaw was a member of LA Galaxy at some point in time, it would be extremely easy to find to link to support that. It is quite clear that he was never a member of the Galaxy at any point in time.  That blatant fabrication should call for the majority of this article to be deleted - with the exception of his employment by Ethnikos Piraeus, which I am aware of as I follow the team.  (By the way, as to the discussion of whether the Cypriot league is fully professional or whatever, that's an absurd discussion - the Cypriot league is legitimate league, and its top clubs regularly compete in European competition - including this year's edition of the Champions League) - — Preceding unsigned comment added by Trueblue14 (talk • contribs)
 * While I agree that the Cypriot 1st division is fully pro, Redshaw played in the 2nd division and earlier AfDs have determined that there are semi-pro or amateur clubs at that level. Jogurney (talk) 16:00, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Keep I agree that Cyprus League is a fully professional league and if the player has played in a league game there in 1st or 2nd division then should be kept. Also agree with other comments where they speak about the website soccerassociation, it is a website that has all information on players and proves where Redshaw has played in the past and is the same as the artical and has LA Galxy on his history but does also say he never played a game for LA Galaxy on there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.49.126.132 (talk) 14:43, 24 March 2009 (UTC)
 * Above user's first ever edit -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:54, 24 March 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.