Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mark Taylor (music producer)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Opinions differ about whether coverage is sufficient for inclusion. The article is therefore kept by default, in absence of a consensus to delete.  Sandstein  08:26, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Mark Taylor (music producer)

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Total lack of reliable secondary sources mentioning this music producer. Searches for his name coupled with "producer" or "songwriter" turn up only an allmusic page (user-submitted content) and copies of this wikipedia article. The one reference on the page is a dead link and no archived version of that article appears to exist anywhere. He is mentioned tangentially in a couple of articles about the Cher song "Believe" but that's it. Doesn't rise to the level required by WP:NMUSIC and certainly not WP:GNG. Rockypedia (talk) 14:50, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Music-related deletion discussions.  /wiae   /tlk  14:54, 11 March 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep - He meets WP:NMUSIC, 1, 3 and 4 for composers and lyricists. He won a Grammy. Per all music credits, he has a long lists of credits as composer and producer. There are numerous mentions of him as a producer for big-name artists in Billboard magazine: 1999, 2001, 2002, 2004. There's an article about him in Oxford Music Online (subscription required), and an article about him in Encyclopedia of Popular Music (Oxford University Press, subscription required). The article could be expanded and better sourced, but he seems to meet notability. — Maile  (talk) 15:22, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Hang on a second - criteria 1, 3, 4, for composers and lyricists? Which songs did he write lyrics or music for? Because on "Believe", he is listed as a producer. I don't see evidence of him meeting (1) - writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition, or (3) Has had a work used as the basis for a later composition by a notable songwriter, composer or lyricist or (4) Has written a composition that has won a major music competition. Remember that you're citing rules for composers and lyricists and the only mentions of Mark Taylor in reliable sources are as a producer or mixer. With regards to the Grammy, he wasn't nominated for the Grammy as an individual - the song he produced won a Grammy. I don't believe that that alone establishes notability. Rockypedia (talk) 16:04, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Oxford Music Online and Encyclopedia of Popular Music appear to be the same thing. Additionally, much like imdb is for movies, it appears anyone can contribute an entry for music on those sites, so I wouldn't call those reliable secondary sources. Rockypedia (talk) 16:11, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
 * The allmusic link to credits list hm as a producer and composer on numerous songs. — Maile (talk) 16:13, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
 * #1, Allmusic is not a reliable source, as it relies on user-submitted content. #2 Even if it was, which of those songs that he composed qualify under WP:NMUSIC? Rockypedia (talk) 16:21, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United Kingdom-related deletion discussions. North America1000 18:46, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. North America1000 18:46, 11 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Do I understand you correctly that you are saying Oxford Music Online and Encylopedia of Popular Music are not reliable? Are you aware that we have both as part of Wikipedia Library?  If you believe these are unreliable, I would encourage you to voice your opinion directly to that talk page.  Editors here can only assume that if Wikipedia offers a subscription to sources, then Wikipedia sanctions those sources as reliable. — Maile  (talk) 23:09, 12 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Also, Help:Reliable sources wizard/Step 3 lists allmusic as a reliable source. — Maile (talk) 00:32, 13 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Again, I ask the question I posed in point #2 above: which of those songs that he composed qualify under WP:NMUSIC? Rockypedia (talk) 00:24, 16 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Well, it's been a week since I asked that question, and I know the reason it hasn't been answered: Because there are none. He hasn't composed any notable songs. He does not qualify under WP:NMUSIC. Rockypedia (talk) 22:53, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Delete at best for now as none of this suggests a better solidly independently notable article, still needs improvements and I'm not seeing any current signs of that. SwisterTwister   talk  22:14, 15 March 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vipinhari  &#124;&#124;  talk  16:32, 21 March 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 19:19, 28 March 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Vipinhari  &#124;&#124;  talk  17:49, 29 March 2016 (UTC)  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus. Relisting comment: DRV consensus to relist AfD for more comments ☺ ·  Salvidrim!   ·  &#9993;  18:58, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete - Subject lacks significant coverage in reliable sources. He is mentioned only in passing in the sources that are out there. It will be tough to improve the page without verification. Meatsgains (talk) 23:48, 8 April 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ☺ ·  Salvidrim!   ·  &#9993;  18:58, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Help:Reliable sources wizard/Step 3 lists allmusic as a reliable source "for Music artist biographies and album reviews." The Grammy as composer for "Believe" is listed in the allmusic credits, not in the bio, and I don't know if that's significant or not. Anyway, I see that Taylor was mis-linked and therefore redlinked multiple times at Believe (Cher song). I have fixed that. if nothing else. Kinda surprised that we could have all this attention at the Afd and no thought to check if he was even properly linked from the song that is his greatest claim to notability, imo. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 19:13, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Weak Keep The Grammy and his large body of works support notability. The  Oxford Music Online's article appears to be written by Barry Kernfeld and in any case doesn't appear to be something just anyone can edit, though they do solicit authors.  (I can see both articles listed as subscription only, perhaps because I'm editing from within a peer institution's domain). I'd like another decent source to go with it though, thus the "weak" part. Hobit (talk) 20:41, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Counterpoint He didn't win a Grammy. He didn't write the song that won a Grammy. The song won, and that Grammy - "Best Dance Recording" - is given to "recording artists for works containing quality vocal performances in the dance music genre." Cher accepted that Grammy onstage. The subject of this article supposedly has a "co-producer" credit on the song, which does not meet any part of WP:NMUSIC, as pointed out above. If that's his only claim to notability (and it appears that it is), it's not enough. Rockypedia (talk) 21:03, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * See my comment in the DRV and below. The large body of work listed on All Music is not what it seems. He wasn't doing sound engineer work as 3 years old, it isn't the guy who is the keyboard player for The Alarm or Simple Minds, both things those credits claim. Some of those may indeed be this Mark Taylor but certainly not all - in fact the guy from The Alarm has a rather extensive list of collaborations etc a rather extensive list of collaborations etc many of which match the other items on that All Music list. Fr reference this is about Mark Taylor from The Alarm and he was born in 1956 in Leicester. --82.14.37.32 (talk) 21:40, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete unless someone can explain to me how the all music credits are a reasonable validated source. As stated at the DRV the credits do seem impressive, but some of them are from when he'd just be 3 years old according to the corresponding bio. Some of them are for the Mark Taylor from the band the Alarm, who was born in 1956 and is a completely different person. The bio part of the all music listing says nothing about this career as a music producer, but instead talks about a jazz musician. In short the whole thing being predicated on all these credits he has when it's quite clear the all music bio is a mix of various people called Mark Taylor. Additionally the http://www.oxfordreference.com/view/10.1093/acref/9780195313734.001.0001/acref-9780195313734-e-27714?rskey=26a6iM&result=1 Oxford Encyclopedia of music bio] starts with the exact same wording as the all music bio, so is similarly questionable as to if it's talking about the same Mark Taylor. --82.14.37.32 (talk) 21:31, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Now that I'm home, I can't see the bio any longer. I suspect you are right and it is about a different person. In which case I'd drop my weak keep.  I likely won't have time to verify either way, so the closer should feel free to ignore my !vote if there is consensus it's the wrong person--I'm leaving town on vacation for a week with (hopefully) limited Internet access.  I've grave doubts that the Oxford one is _wrong_ given who wrote it, but I also suspect it may be about the Jazz musician instead, again given who wrote it, assuming they are different people. Hobit (talk) 01:03, 9 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep There's no doubt this guy is notable - Extensive article in The New York Times about Cher's song "Believe", outlining how it was produced/written, Taylor is mentioned and quoted several times. Mentioned in The Huffington Post - While working with Cher on the song “Believe” in 1998, producers Mark Taylor and Brian Rawling discovered that if they set Auto-Tune on its most aggressive setting, so that it corrected the pitch at the exact moment it received the signal, the result was an unsettlingly robotic tone. And this book as well - Perfecting Sound Forever. Mentioned in The New Yorker - The first popular example of Auto-Tune’s distorting effect was Cher’s 1998 hit “Believe,” produced by Mark Taylor and Brian Rawling. Results from HighBeam include many many mentions:
 * The Mail on Sunday - This was a hit single in 1999. The song, produced by Brian Rawling and Mark Taylor - the team behind Cher's 1998 hit Believe - came from the album Twenty Four Seven.
 * Sacramento Observer - The new album is Richie's ninth solo project and brings him together with some of the most successful contemporary producers of today, including Brian Rawling, Mark Taylor...
 * The New York Beacon - The album dropped last October with the release of "When The Heartache Is Over," co-written by John Reid of the Nightcrawlers and Graham Stack, and produced by Brian Rawling and Mark Taylor, the dynamic team behind Cher's multi-million hit "Believe."
 * The Washington Post - And while "Believe" won't disappoint anyone who enjoys a good laugh at an aging pop icon's expense, it's hard to knock the way the album's producers (Mark Taylor, Brian Rawling and Junior Vasquez) have groomed her as a high- tech, electronica-age cousin of Gloria Gaynor and Donna Summer.
 * The Mirror - They will record with producers Paul Barry and Mark Taylor, who are responsible for Enrique's major hit Hero.
 * Knight Ridder/Tribune News Service - Producers and songwriters Paul Barry and Mark Taylor, the Believe architects pour it on thick here.
 * The Buffalo News - A couple of years ago Cher turned her flagging recording career around with the help of a couple of hip, young producers. Brian Rawling and Mark Taylor, the guys behind Cher's smash hit, "Believe," are back behind the controls to produce Tina Turner's new single, "When The Heartache Is Over."
 * Chicago Defender - The album's producers are Brian Rawling, and Mark Taylor.
 * Chicago Sun-Times - ...Stewart has wisely turned over the producing reigns to Rob Dickins, who brought together a stellar stable of contemporary pop/R&B wizards including Brian Rawling, Mark Taylor and Christopher Neil.
 * The Irish Times - Brian Rawlings, Mark Taylor and Jeff Taylor, collectively known as Metrophonic, who took an interest in these teen tunesmiths and took on the task of producing their debut album.
 * Music Business Worldwide - It also includes songs by Grammy Award winner Mark Taylor, co-writer and producer of Heartbeat for Enrique Iglesias feat.-- Isaidnoway (talk)  23:50, 10 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Comment Every single one of these is an insignificant mention of the subject's name in articles that are not about him, and every single one is about him producing one song for Cher. That doesn't equal notability, even if 11 different newspapers made the same mention. He still has to pass WP:NMUSIC, and not one of the articles is even close to indicating that he does. Rockypedia (talk) 07:05, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Re:Comment - Just to provide clarification on - every single one is about him producing one song for Cher - The Mail on Sunday, New York Beacon, Buffalo News and Chicago Defender are all articles about Tina Turner's song When the Heartache Is Over, The Sacramento Observer is about Lionel Richie's album Renaissance, The Mirror is about a duet from Ronan Keating and Enrique Iglesias and Iglesias' song Hero, The Chicao Sun-Times is about Rod Stewart's album Human, The Irish Times is about The Faders and Taylor's association with Metrophonic, and Music Business Worldwide is about Iglesias' song Heartbeat and Taylor's association with Metrophonic. In addition, we have two categories on WP specifically for Taylor - Song recordings produced by Mark Taylor (record producer), 36 articles and Songs written by Mark Taylor (record producer), 30 articles. He's produced/written for Belinda Carlisle, Britney Spears, James Morrison, Enrique Iglesias, Ronan Keating, Brian McFadden, Cher, Celine Dion, Tina Turner, many more and is frequently, if not always, listed in the lead of articles where he has produced/written.-- Isaidnoway (talk)  18:52, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
 * What song did he write that is considered a "notable composition"? (the requirement laid out by WP:NMUSIC) Rockypedia (talk) 19:01, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
 * #1. Has credit for writing or co-writing either lyrics or music for a notable composition. - Be with You - nominated for Grammy, Taylor credited as producer/writer - he won a grammy for producer/mixer for Best Dance Recording for Believe, and there is 30 Wikipedia articles that pass WP:GNG where Taylor is credited as writer and/or co-writer, so there is a whole category of his "notable compositions" where he is listed as writer and/or co-writer.-- Isaidnoway (talk)  23:52, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
 * For the 4th time - He didn't win a Grammy. The song Believe won a Grammy, and the Grammy was presented to the artist who performed the vocal (in this case Cher). He didn't write that song either; he was a co-producer on it, which basically means he was in the control room hitting record, which is why a producer isn't considered notable just for being listed as a producer on a single Grammy-winning song. There's still no substantial coverage in reliable sources. Rockypedia (talk) 00:17, 12 July 2016 (UTC)
 * The song won a Grammy for Best Dance Recording. If it was a Grammy for best written song, then I would agree that this would not be his Grammy.  But the producer is responsible for the song's recording, and he is indeed listed as one of the winners for the song on the Grammy website link in the article - but the writers are not listed because they are not responsible for recording the song. Rlendog (talk) 20:07, 18 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete per above. Lots of mentions, no substantial coverage in reliable sources that we can actually build an article around. A redirect to the song would be a possibility though. Andrew Lenahan -  St ar bli nd  02:27, 11 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Redirecting to one song doesn't make any sense because he worked on several, and redirecting him to just one of his many credits is WP:UNDUE. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 05:23, 13 July 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep. He clearly meets WP:NMUSIC as a producer and songwriter with multiple credits in both fields. His incredibly generic name makes it hard to find substantial sources, but I think that enough have been unearthed in the course of this discussion to more than sufficiently assert notability. Ten Pound Hammer • (What did I screw up now?) 05:23, 13 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - Winning a Grammy award for Best Dance Recording (emphasis added) meets WP:NMUSIC criterion #8. I'll note additionally that the Grammy's own siite lists him as a winner for the song, but does not list many other people associated with the song, such as the songwriters.   And even if it didn't I agree with Ten Pound Hammer. Rlendog (talk) 19:59, 18 July 2016 (UTC)
 * Keep - If he meets neither WP:NMUSIC nor GNG, he probably meets WP:BIO (or WP:AUTHOR), either criterion #3 or #4. He made contributions to well-known artists. --George Ho (talk) 21:23, 18 July 2016 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.