Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marlies Krämer


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Consensus is clear that she is notable beyond her recent lawsuit, especially with the mentioned success she had forcing the change that low pressure areas are no longer only referred to using female names, thus failing the WP:BLP1E reason given by the nominator. SoWhy 17:31, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Marlies Krämer

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Google search shows that this is a textbook case of WP:BLP1E, and that the publicity is mostly being bought by Kraemer anyway. Nearly all of the Google hits (most of which are behind firewalls) are about a lawsuit that she has filed concerning the wording of forms. (The headline fails in translation because it says that she wants to be addressed as a Customer (Inhaber) rather than a Customer (Inhaberin).) Otherwise not notable. This article, like many of the German-language articles, appear oriented to publicizing her campaign about the wording of documents. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:51, 20 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. MT TrainDiscuss 03:40, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions. MT TrainDiscuss 03:40, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

Dear Robert McClenon,
 * Delete no where near close to meeting notability.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:45, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Delete BLP1E with no good sources. Agricola44 (talk) 14:28, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

I am the creator of this very article. Are you capable to comprehend the German language?

Regards, Da Vinci Nanjing (talk) 17:35, 21 February 2018 (UTC)
 * User:Da Vinci Nanjing - My German is good enough that I can see that all of the coverage in the German news media appears to be about one campaign that is WP:BLP1E. I know what the difference is between 'Inhaber' and 'Inhaberin', or between 'Kanzler' and 'Kanzlerin', which is the same as the difference between 'actor' and 'actress', a distinction not normally preserved in English (which is nonetheless a West Germanic language like German).  Do you see the banner at the top of this discussion, which says that commenting on other users is normally considered disruptive?  Robert McClenon (talk) 02:34, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Hi all, I´ve been an author, primarly for the german edition, but as an bilingual expat I was asked for my opinion. Right now, the old lady doesn´t look like a really important person, but she has fought a hard fight against the german gouvernment to change their point of view on the so called "generische Maskulin", a fight that has been fought in the german Wikipedia on the term "Benutzerin" for female writers instead of using "Benutzer" for male as well as femals writers. Some of the female writers/gamers/whatever tend to use "userin" instead of "user" to describe themselves online as female. I hope this helps to understand why she - since the 1990s - has been drawing a lot of attention from major german media (Der Spiegel, ZDF, ARD, BILD: not really hidden sites) - she is an activist fighting against 1000+ years of linguistic discrimination in the official and legal use of the german language. And she made it to the BGH (german supreme court) right now, fighting against the Sparkasse, one of the best known german financial institutions. Another amazing thing: She made the change in the naming of cyclones and anticyclones, since then nice weather can carry a female name. Additionally she wrote at least three books (ISBN-13: 978-3936950144 Tausend und ein Frauenleben/ ISBN 978-3-936950-32-8 Aus Liebe zur Wirklichkeit/ISBN 978-3-936950-02-1 Wirbel im Blätterwald),I think there was one more, but I would need to check on this. IMO she is notable enough for any wiki, shame on us, that we over here don´t have an article on her. I´m sure Da Vinci can use the additional information to expand the article and carve out the importance of Krämer, even if the english language doesen´t give the same reasons for a feminist to fight for a change - and maybe he´ll write one for the german wiki too... hmm? Best wishes Ivy (talk) 00:14, 22 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Coolabahapple (talk) 22:46, 23 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Comment, here are some news items discussing Krämer (and yes, i am not fluent in non-english languages, i rely on "Shock, horror!!!, gtranslate (and commonsense) :)), Süddeutsche Zeitung - "How Marlies Krämer fights for the female salutation", les nouvelles news - "In Germany, the "neutral male" in court", Stern (magazine) - "Sparkassen customer fights BGH for female salutation", could a fluent editor please comment on whether they support her notability or not, thanks. Coolabahapple (talk) 23:04, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Dear User:Robert McClenon, I don't know what banner your are talking about. To show you my view of this website I uploaded a screenshot. It will be availabe for download for 30 days. https://ufile.io/sd6lu It looks like, you lack the necessary German language skills to figure out, that Mrs. Krämer is not a WP:BLP1E, because she isn't a one time event individual. She got media coverage at least 3 times since the 1990s.

Dear User:PoisendIvy, I won't write a German language Wikipedia article for Mrs. Krämer. I'll try to stick with the English language Wikipedia. You are free to do so.

Dear User:Coolabahapple, I am a German native speaker. I suppose Ivy is a native speaker too.

Regards, Da Vinci Nanjing (talk) 12:07, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Dear User:Robert McClenon, I guess you wanna say paywall instead of firewall. I added another reliable source you can access without a paywall. The source describes her role in the 1990s renaming of low and high pressure areas. Regards, Da Vinci Nanjing (talk) 13:51, 24 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Don't delete For your interest: I have just written the article for the German Wikipedia about her: de:Marlies Krämer. She is notable enough for sure, not alone because of her activities in the feministic field, but also as an author who published five books. Best regards --Maimaid (talk) 22:58, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

I would like to comment on something User:PoisendIvy wrote:

The length of an article, does not influence it's notability.

An article deemed to short is called a stub > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Stub It's like that: The article for the former POTUS Barack Obama was created in the English language Wikipedia on 18, March 2004. Back than Mr. Obama among other things happened to be a member of the Illinois Senate since 1996, made an announcement to run for a US Senate seat and achieved a landslide victory in the related primary (2 days earlier). The first version contained 5 sentences. Does this mean the article doesn't fulfill notability criteria? No The article in this very first version could be considered a stub, but it is very likely notable. Da Vinci Nanjing (talk) 09:32, 25 February 2018 (UTC) My first version for the article is far superior in comparison to the mentioned Barack Obama article, because the article I created includes sources. 13:12, 25 February 2018 (UTC)Da Vinci Nanjing (talk)


 * Marlies Krämer's camapigns have influenced policy in Germany and had lasting effects, which ultimately concern the use of the German language. She is also the author of several books. She didn't get much credit for her work in earlier years, but the recent coverage stresses the influence her activism has had for decades. The article cites major German media, so "no good sources" doesn't seem to apply, either. (More articles in respectatble newspapers are available online.) --Mushushu (talk) 16:16, 25 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep. on the basis of the deWP article which has additional sources to show that this is a significant matter of public interest in Germany.  DGG ( talk ) 23:56, 25 February 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep. per DGG Agathoclea (talk) 12:16, 27 February 2018 (UTC)

Dear User:Robert McClenon, I understood the Wikipedia policy, not to attack a contributor, but his arguments. I was not aware of this policy. This is the first time I am deeply involved in a deletion discussion. Next time, I'll try to do better.

Keep. In a nutshell: Mrs. Krämer is far more than a one time event induvidual. My attributed sources stress this out. Da Vinci Nanjing (talk) 21:50, 28 February 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep A few years ago I helped rewrite the text to WP:BLP1E to underscore that for a topic to fall under that particular guideline requires threading more than one needle; there are a series of specific conditions that must all be met. It's easy to fail any one of them, in which case merely passing GNG or a subject-specific guideline is sufficient to keep a bio. Kramer was definitely not low-profile, because she made proactive efforts to attract attention and influence the public: she is an activist. Not living a private life, but working publicly for social change. That right there means BLP1E doesn't apply. But she also was someone who was an activist for gender equality on multiple fronts, not only one. More importantly, she carried out this activity over the course of several years, in multiple venues. That is not a single "event". Finally, she was not an incidental bit player. Like a regular schlub who's name was in the news because he witnessed a major disaster. She was an organizer and instigator; a leader in the work she did. So her role was not minor. BLP1E is so misunderstood. This is a textbook case of NOT BLP1E. It's clear from the sources that this is someone who drove significant social change. --Dennis Bratland (talk) 05:26, 1 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep Per Ivy and Dennis Bratland. With the new sources added, I'm sure the article could be expanded. Too late for the Women in Red project?, but better late than never.  Tribe of Tiger Let's Purrfect!  17:20, 1 March 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.