Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mart Sander


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. J04n(talk page) 16:32, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Mart Sander

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Reason: does not appear to conform with any of the criteria for WP:NOTABLE. most of the citations are from subject's own website(s) or sites of organizations selling his products (recordings or paintings). Many citations are dead. Many do not refer to him at all. A number are in Estonian and it is impossible for a non-Estonian reader to evaluate them. Substantial contributors to the article have included User:Martsander and User:Zanderz, so it appears that the article may be basically WP:PROMO. These two editors have not however declared any WP:COI. Delete. Smerus (talk) 15:36, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Immediately I had posted this AfD, User:Prince of Thieves reverted it without explanation. Those who know how to do this could warn him that this is unacceptable.--Smerus (talk) 15:39, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * At the time there was no corresponding AfD page to the tag you placed on the article. I assumed it was a mistake and undid it accordingly. Prince of Thieves (talk) 16:02, 20 March 2018 (UTC) — Striking per WP: SOCKSTRIKE. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:27, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
 * While I do not know User:Prince of Thieves, I believe he/she reverted your edit in good faith. If you look at the edit history, it took you a few tries to get the nomination template right.ExRat (talk) 16:01, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * If I was a girl, it would be Princess of Thieves! -- Prince of Thieves (talk) 16:47, 20 March 2018 (UTC)   — Striking per WP: SOCKSTRIKE. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:27, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Nice to know you two support each other (and see below). --Smerus (talk) 16:10, 20 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep. While I agree that many citations seem to come from the subject himself or someone close to him, this nomination is rather heavy-handed. It should not be nominated for deletion because of that - it should have had a WP:COI template. Sander is extremely well known to the Estonian public. He has been host of Eesti otsib superstaari (the Estonian version of Pop Idol), the host of Tantsud tähtedega (the Estonian version of Dancing with the Stars) and several other television programmes. He has appeared in several feature films (Kallis härra Q and Varas). Created the TV3 televisions series Litsid (based on Sander's 2015 novel), etc. He meets notability many times over. ExRat (talk) 15:49, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * You say so - but where are the citations for your claims? Who is going to deal with the COI template? As there is already an article Eesti otsib superstaari (for some reason), why can't he be dealt with by a redirect to it? In what way does he qualify as WP:NOTABLE in Wikipedia because he is known to some Estonians? Please specify exactly (if you can) how he meets the notability criteria - that, and only that, is the only context in which this article's qualifications can be judged. --Smerus (talk) 16:10, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Wikipedia covers the whole world, so sorry if you don't care about people only known in Estonia. COI issues can be dealt with surprisingly easily for high profile people. And he meets many aspects of notability, including WP:GNG/WP:BIO (by the Estonian sources), WP:ANYBIO (for his long term service to media), WP:NACTOR #1, #2, and #3 (for his film work, large following in Estonia, and prolific long term media ouput), and WP:CREATIVE #1 and #4 (for his long term service to media, and paintings). Prince of Thieves (talk) 16:18, 20 March 2018 (UTC) — Striking per WP: SOCKSTRIKE. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:27, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Smerus, you seem to be under the impression that English language Wikipedia should only cover subjects notable in anglophone nations and areas. That is incorrect. Any subject, that is notable, even if only in the native country or area, is worthy of a Wiki entry. I am not sure why you are perplexed that an Estonian television programme (Eesti otsib superstaari) should have its own article. In regards to Mart Sander, I am Estonian. I speak Estonian. I am more than willing to go through the article and suss out independent references and citations for the article. In about two seconds, I found a short bio from The Kennedy Center. ExRat (talk) 16:45, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * This 'bio from the Kennedy Center' begins with exactly the same wording as the article does. The beginning of the article, whixh is cited to Saner's website (where these words do not appear) is therefore apparently a copyright infringement of the Kennedy  Centre article - i am raising WP:COPYVIO on the article's talk page accordingly. --Smerus (talk) 17:26, 20 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Keep the subject is notable and meets WP:GNG. He has been featured in numerous reliable sources, including a BBC documentary. He has been a long term television and popular culture personality, with several well known and well covered TV shows and films to his name, and I would say also meets WP:CREATIVE. There is also the matter of his paintings being exhibited in a national gallery, which on it's own would meet CREATIVE. In short a clear keep, to the extent I thought the nomination itself was a mistake. -- Prince of Thieves (talk) 16:02, 20 March 2018 (UTC) — Striking per WP: SOCKSTRIKE. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:27, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Also Estonian language sources are encouraged, and if you can't assess them then you should try to find someone who can, or use google translate. Prince of Thieves (talk) 16:10, 20 March 2018 (UTC)  — Striking per WP: SOCKSTRIKE. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:27, 24 March 2018 (UTC)


 * Most of the citations I looked at, and used google translate for, didn't even mention the topic of the article. Either give proper citations (even in Estonian) for the claims you make for the subject (eg the BBc documentary), or desist.--Smerus (talk) 16:13, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Here you go BFI listing, and it's by the Emmy award winning Marina Zenovich (see Marina Zenovich). Although this is stated in the article and took me two seconds to Google. Prince of Thieves (talk) — Striking per WP: SOCKSTRIKE. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:27, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
 * But this 'citation' doesn't mention Sander at all - or indeed the BBC. The BBC apparently broadcast this film in 2003, but that doesn't make it a 'BBC documentary', and to refer to it as such is highly misleading. There is nothing on Google or anywhere else as far as I can see linking Sander to this documentary. Sander may perhaps be mentioned in passing in the documentary, (although no citation given supports this) but even so that doesn't make him in any way notable. Please provide concrete evidence, instead of vague gestures. If you can't, editors will draw their own conclusions. Citations which don't support the contentions in the article are worthless and should be deleted. --Smerus (talk) 17:09, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * He actually appears prominently throughout the documentary: AllMove. "The charming, erudite Mart Sander, Estonia's most well-known actor/singer/game show host, has been mysteriously passed over in favor of Marko Matvere, another actor whose English is not as good." ExRat (talk) 17:17, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * This is a further piece of misrepresentation. He is mentioned as being interviewed as part of the documentary. That is not the same as "appearing prominently throughout the documentary". Please stop these misrepresentations. --Smerus (talk) 17:26, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * I've watched the documentary. It isn't a "misrepresentation". He is indeed featured prominently throughout the documentary. Anyway, I've finished with this for now. It's becoming ridiculous. ExRat (talk) 17:38, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

What the heck... The documentary is a citation. You don't need citations to support citations, that's simply recursive. The documentary itself was made by a notable filmmaker, and factchecked by the BBC arena team who then broadcast it, so it's certainly reliable. Prince of Thieves (talk) 18:50, 20 March 2018 (UTC) — Striking per WP: SOCKSTRIKE. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 01:27, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. L3X1  ◊distænt write◊  16:35, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. L3X1  ◊distænt write◊  16:35, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions. L3X1  ◊distænt write◊  16:35, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Estonia-related deletion discussions. L3X1  ◊distænt write◊  16:35, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Comment: it appears the documentary Estonia Dreams of Eurovision! was a BBC production, made for their long-running Arena documentary series, and was broadcast in May 2002 . But its existence alone doesn't prove Sander's notability. Richard3120 (talk) 19:46, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Note User:Prince of Thieves, who has commented extensively above, has as of 22 march 2018 been blocked indefinitely and locked globally. (Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of A Den Jentyl Ettien Avel Dysklyver). I presume that means his 'vote' and comments doesn't count in this discussion. --Smerus (talk) 11:24, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep as has prominent roles on popular notable television shows such as a judge on Estonian's version of Pop Idol, film roles and music career have coverage in rs as shown by Google news. Atlantic306 (talk) 17:39, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, 78.26  (spin me / revolutions) 16:34, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep Does appear to have received a fair bit of coverage (in Estonian, of course), which indicates that WP:ANYBIO is likely passed. —SerialNumber54129  paranoia / cheap shit room 16:48, 28 March 2018 (UTC)
 * Keep Has received SIGCOV in RS. Most of the coverage seems to be in Estonian, but it is not a requirement for the coverage of the subject to be in English. Hrodvarsson (talk) 19:23, 30 March 2018 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.