Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Martin Heuberger (2nd nomination)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. ✗ plicit  23:47, 8 February 2022 (UTC)

Martin Heuberger
AfDs for this article:


 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Only thing that has happened since previous AFD is some ref-bombing with WP:ROUTINE sources. If no one is interested in this subject, let alone write an actually meaningful article about him, there is no encyclopedic value in an article about him. Tvx1 16:40, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 17:06, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Handball-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 17:06, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Germany-related deletion discussions.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 17:06, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep, AFD is not cleanup, and this is a stub about a clearly notable person (as was established in the previous AFD), even if you may be tempted to redirect to Germany men's national handball team, the source of his notability. Suggest to withdraw this AFD. —Kusma (talk) 17:14, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Not going to withdraw this. The claim that this subject is notable is a joke. Cleary no-one is interested in this person, or else a meaninful article would have been written a long time ago. There is nothing that proves the encyclopedic value of this article.Tvx1 23:34, 1 February 2022 (UTC)
 * "else a meaninful article would have been written a long time ago"... well, it sometimes takes a while, and non-inclusion is not an indicator for non-notability (else we couldn't write any new articles anymore; in the last year alone, I created articles on people including Max Wallraf and Emil Utitz, who are clearly worthy of inclusion despite having had no articles). It is clear that a sports biography can be written about Heuberger (successfully lead his hometown club to the Handball-Bundesliga, managed the national team, did something else, now manages junior national team). Easy to find more sources:, , . —Kusma (talk) 09:35, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
 * This article has existed like this for ten years. Five years since the last AFD. That’s more than enough to make “it takes a while” a ridiculous excuse. Clearly no one is interested in this person thus justifying a standalone article. Accept reality and stop filling Wikpedia with rubbish articles.Tvx1 06:31, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
 * @LeFnake and @Malo95 have now expanded the article, which is much more helpful than us all arguing here about what potential the article has. It still isn't great, but at least now lists some of the person's sporting achievements. @Tvx1: please tell me which of my Wikipedia articles is rubbish and why, and I'll try to fix it. Most of my rubbish articles are 15 years old now. —Kusma (talk) 20:25, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Expanded with nothing but WP:ROUTINE information. Nothing that actually establishes notability. Let me ask you a question? What are you obessed with blocking deletion of this article? Why is this person so important to you? Why would it be such a drama for you if this were deleted?Tvx1 00:26, 6 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I am not interested in this person at all (I don't care about handball). I came across this deletion discussion because I look at all Germany-related AfDs. I care about improving Wikipedia, and so I argue to keep or to delete as needed. Sometimes others agree with me, sometimes they don't. But my personal approach isn't the issue here. The Deutschlandfunk Kultur and Handball World sources are significant coverage. There are enough sources interested in the person, not just mentioning him. —Kusma (talk) 03:47, 6 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep - Kusma says it. There's no time limit on these things. Ingratis (talk) 02:09, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Nothing you state is a valid keep argument.Tvx1 06:31, 4 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep - Notable and as Kusma said above, no need to delete. If someone wants to expand it, they can, even if not he stays notable. Kante4 (talk) 16:20, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
 * You came up with the exact same nonsensical arguments five years ago. Literally no one was interested then and is now to expand this, because there simply isn’t anything to expand this with and because no-one is interested in this subject. I really don’t understand why you are so hell-bent on keeping an article that has no encyclopaedic value whatsoever. Moreover, when you claim something is notable, you need to prove that. Something isn’t notable just because you say so.Tvx1 06:38, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Why are you commenting on every single voter who does not share the same feeling as you do? Just let the AfD run out and see how it went (pretty clear right now, tbh). Kante4 (talk) 15:16, 8 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Comment. I'm not particularly impressed with the sources in the article and found during AfD, since they seem to be heavily interview-based rather than independent analyses. If all that can be found on him is restatements of his quotes there's not really any encyclopedic merit to a standalone article. JoelleJay (talk) 02:47, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Keep - I agree that there is a lack of secondary source, but I found those in german, , . Nowadays, he played 164 matches in best handball league, played 26 international matches with Germany, was a successful manager of Germany men's national junior handball team between 2002 and 2011 (leading to 2 titles in Junior World Championship in 2009, 2011 and 2 titles in European Junior Championship in 2004 and 2006) and with Germany men's national handball team, he headed two major competitions (7th at 2012 European Championship and 5th at 2013 World Championship). Ok he is not the best known handballer, but I think we should keep this article. --LeFnake (talk) 09:41, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Just playing matches in a sport doesn’t make one notable. Everything you provided is WP:ROUTINE. Notability is achieved through significant coverage in independent sources. You just haven’t provided any justification for keeping this.Tvx1 15:51, 4 February 2022 (UTC)
 * No, he did not just played matches in a sport, he played 164 professional matches in 1st handball League (Bundesliga), 26 international matches with Germany (one of the best national team) and has been Germany's coach for 3 years, heading two major competitions (7th at 2012 European Championship and 5th at 2013 World Championship).--LeFnake (talk) 07:38, 7 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep He's 100% notable. He was head coach of one of the best and most watched handball team in the world. And most media groups in Germany has a lot of articles about him. (taz: 49; FAZ: ~117; Spiegel: 10; RP Online: 481; Süddeutsche: 23; baden.online: 905) I know most of this is only WP:ROUTINE but I didn't looked at all this articles and some will have deeper coverage. And he will pass WP:GNG without any problems. 🤾‍♂️ Malo95 (talk) 07:45, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Handball. Just being a coach of a team in a sport doesn’t make you notable. Not every sport is fundamentally notable. What we need is significant coverage, which no one so far has been able to provide. You only give a personal feeling about notability.Tvx1 16:28, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Significant coverage is already provided. It looks for me that your personal feelings are in play here. Here an other example of a source which provides a complete interview of him and the women's coach (part 1 and part 2). It is a interview in one of the most prestigious magazine in the world. And here an other article. I really don't know what you want more. 🤾‍♂️ Malo95 (talk) 17:20, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
 * Interviews are not considered acceptable for notability purposes unless they include SIGCOV by the interviewer (otherwise they are WP:PRIMARY and not independent); that one clearly does not. The second source is better, since, despite having a lot of quotes, there appears to be independent analysis by the reporter. JoelleJay (talk) 18:30, 5 February 2022 (UTC)
 * I found more articles about him from the ARD (National public-service broadcaster)
 * Start as national team coach:, &
 * End as national team coach:, and  (This would be a news broadcast in the tv, but in the archive not able to play)
 * The second big national broadcaster ZDF has also an article about the end:
 * This two broadcaster talked for sure in there sports program about the start and the end of Heuberger. They also showed handball games which he gave interviews etc. And these games watched several millions of people. I really don't know how you have the feelling that he is not notable. If he wouldn't be notable most coaches of all team sports wouldn't be notable as well.🤾‍♂️ Malo95 (talk) 11:06, 6 February 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep, the only "bombing" taking place here is the WP:IDONTLIKEIT WP:BLUDGEONing in this discussion. For context, Germany is one of the few countries in the world which actually has fully professional handball, with good attendances, media coverage etc, which, more importantly, has been demonstrated in this discussion. The article/subject is a bit beyond the need for debating certain details of this or that source, which is an editorial question belonging to the article's talk page. Geschichte (talk) 06:16, 8 February 2022 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.