Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Marvin Perry


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result was no consensus, but with some momentum toward keep. Cool Hand Luke 05:41, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Marvin Perry

 * – (View AfD) (View log)

Non-notable and definately WP:COI. Original author was User:Marvin Perry and that was his only contribution. Article was PRODed but the tag was removed.Peter Rehse 00:27, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletions.   —Peter Rehse 00:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete seems non-notable. —Signed by KoЯn fan71 My TalkSign Here! 00:34, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 *  Delete : Non-notable person. And you are right, there could be some COI problems here.  I added a note to the user's talk page. - Rjd0060 00:58, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep: In lieu of some new additions to the article, I believe that it now asserts its notability. - Rjd0060 22:32, 11 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Delete as PRODer. No independent sources to verify biographical information, and I am currently unconvinced that any of the awards he won are significant. Most search results are related to an author of Western Civ textbooks with the same name. The website of the gym he works for makes some claims of notability but I was unable to verify any of this. shoeofdeath 01:00, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 *  Delete  unless verifiable sources attesting to notability are found. Google News Archive yielded-- "Marvin Perry" +karate - did not match any documents. Cheers, :) Dloh cierekim   02:49, 11 October 2007 (UTC) (
 * CommentAppears to have won US championship from USKBA  "WEDNESDAY, SEPTEMBER 19, 2001" Cheers, :) Dloh cierekim   02:59, 11 October 2007 (UTC)Original add — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.59.93.238 (talk • contribs) )
 * Change to keep per US San Da/San Shou legend Marvin Perry, US Kick boxing Association website. I suspect the anon will continue adding sources here, too. PLEASE, add the sources to the article, and leave a comment here when you're done.03:07, 11 October 2007 (UTC) Cheers, :) Dloh cierekim 
 * Comment[IKF Kickboxing http://www.ikfkickboxing.com/sanshou01.htm "who won the amatuers a record 5 times and then turned pro"] "PROTECTING "TRUE" SAN SHOU!" (fixed link added by anon asserting subject's notability) Cheers, :) Dloh cierekim  03:16, 11 October 2007 (UTC) (Original add — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.59.93.238 (talk • contribs) )
 *  Week Keep needs more sourcing but has some and large org title holders deserve a stub. Sourced titles = notable per WP:BIO --Nate1481(t/c) 09:01, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment The presence of titles, especially amateur ones, don't seem to me to be the main reason to keep the article. Instead, we need to find a way to resolve Nate1481's argument vs's Shoeofdeath's. If the USKBA is a large and legitimate organization, then it seems like the awards he won are significant and the article should be a keep.  But if the title and/or organization is one of many, such that everyone and their mother could have a list of winning titles, it's of no real value to us.  So first off: if the USKBA is large and legitimate, why is its article only a few sentences?   &mdash; Mrand  T-C 16:47, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment That is now the crux of the matter. Of course, article size does not necessarily relate to the notability/importance/legitamcay of the subject (USKBA). I've sourced the uncited championships. Whether he meets WP:BIO or not is something yet to be determined. The lack of main stream news reports does not help. Google web hits are awash with directory links back to the subject's homepage. The difficulty of searching archives of the sanctioning bodies, not just USKBA, make matters more difficult. Did all I could-- now it's up to consensus. Cheers, :) Dloh cierekim  17:41, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Yes, Mrand is absolutely correct. I have no doubt that the subject did in fact win all the titles listed, but doubts remain as to whether or not these are in any way important. I certainly don't have any expertise in this area, but it still looks to me as though they are really quite minor. The fact that this is the only article that links to the USKBA page makes me very skeptical as to the importance of that body. Someone with a better knowledge of martial arts related topics might be able to confirm whether or not there is notability here. shoeofdeath 18:15, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment. Web search results (not WP:RS) say there are 3 major organizations in the U.S. (USKBA, IKF, ISKA). Perry has won awards in two of them and ISKA has an undated 15th in class worldwide ranking for him. The Art of War is a major event in China. His win there still needs to be verified. • Gene93k 19:31, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment Shawn Lieu was the promoter of The Art Of War USA event, he may have some info to confirm Perry's title. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.59.93.238 (talk) 19:53, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Reply Personally contacting people, though, does not satisfy WP:V. What we need is published information from sources not connected with the subject. Thanks again for ferreting out as much as we have. Cheers, :) Dloh cierekim  21:42, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment I've seen kick boxing competitions on TV. Are there more well known sanctioning bodies in the sport? What are they? One would expect ESPN to have taken some note of a champion in kick boxing. Cheers, :) Dloh cierekim  21:48, 11 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Comment USKBA, IKF, and ISKA are the main sanctioning bodies in America for Kickboxing some events are televised and some are not.
 * Deleteper nom. CRGreathouse (t | c) 03:01, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Keep. His kickboxing titles make him notable. All but one are verified and I have no reason to doubt the remaining one. COI/NPOV issues are being dealt with. • Gene93k 05:13, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
 * Commentas the creator of the Battle of Brooklyn, a USKBA sanctioned event that has showcased San Da among several other Martial Arts since April 2005, I am very familiar with Marvin and his contribution to Martial Arts and have had the pleasure of working with him as well. anyone familiar with full contact Chinese Martial Arts competition knows what a huge part he has played. anyone who is involved with Martial Arts competition in the NorthEast US knows how huge the USKBA is and how well-respected their titles are. IMO, this debate is ridiculous. there are plenty of people who SHOULD be deleted from Wikipedia. but definitely not this guy. Marvin Perry, is huge among his peers. Mark Negron

- Traditional martial arts are NOT mainstream, the world championship in China, which attracts 87 nations and is now IOC (international OLYMPIC committee) gets no mention in "main stream" press. Yet Marvin Perry is one of the GIANTS in the worlds of kickboxing, San Shou, San Da, and Kung Fu fighting. Holds USKBA title (www.USKBA.com), was FIVE TIME NATIONAL SAN SHOU CHAMPION (www.usawkf.org), holds IKF title (www.ikfkickboxing.com) and was named "fighter of the year" by www.kingofsanda.net To delete this seems ridiculous, perhaps started by someone with an axe to grind? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.246.113.160 (talk • contribs)
 * Please skip the personal attacks, I miss your point when the article was nominated ir was unsourced, now it has several & I doubt the nominator would have considered it in it's current state. P.S. the whole TMA not mainstream thing doesn't make sense --Nate1481(t/c) 14:46, 12 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Let me once again re-state a basic point, martial arts events do not get mainstream news coverage no matter how big and legititmate it is. The biggest San Shou event in the world is the world championships that China sponsors, it is attended by 87 member nations and currently the organizing body (the IWUF) and the sport of San Shou are International Olympic Committee recognized. IE it is a totally legit event. Yet you will find no "main stream" citation. You MIGHT find a single sentence reference to it in a "martial arts magazine". That doesn't make it any less true or important. Marvin Perry is perhaps the #1 San Shou fighter in the United States —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.246.113.160 (talk • contribs)

David A Ross (info@nysanda.com) - Promoter, "New York Showdown", USKBA official, President of King of San Da USA HATE TO STATE THE OBVIOUS - BUT THIS IS MY SIGNATURE!
 * I'm not sure by what standards someone is "notable" on here but in the community in the United States Marvin Perry is considered pound-for-pound the best San Da fighter ever produced. If he wasn't in a totally different weight class from Cung Le, the US would have seen the war to end all wars. I've promoted San Da in this country since 1994 and I've had the pleasure of promoting several of Marvin's fights in both San Da and Muay Thai. Not only does he have all the legit titles in his weight class, and sorry if you aren't part of the community but the IKF and USKBA are 2 of the three bodies here and so they are VERY REAL TITLES. Marvin being a citizen of Trinidad is the only reason he never competed in the San Da World Cup, but he was 5 time amateur national champion, holds 3 professional titles and the respect of the entire community


 * Thanks Dave. If we could see that on a web page from one of the sanctioning bodies or even a newsletter, it would help a lot. WP:V describes verifiable sources. The problem has been trying to pry the info out of the archives. Most of us are not well versed on kick boxing, so it deepens the hole. The subject feels notable to me. Me feelings don't really enter into it though. Hope that helps. Cheers, :) Dloh cierekim   14:35, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

I can completely accept that if you aren't in the San Da or kickboxing world, you might wonder about this. I can also appreciate that the web sites are often not the best maintained. However, this is the current state of martial arts. Aside from the very large UFC event, martial arts simply are not going to play on ESPN or get a story in the New York Times. But I'd say that if that's the standard, you'd have to delete pretty much ALL your martial arts entries. Most of what the Chinese martial arts (aka Kung Fu) community embraces is totally unreliable by academic standards. So I understand your problem, but I'd also suggest that if you apply this standard, in fairness it should be applied to ALL entries...

EDIT: Here is a story FROM THE WEB PAGE OF THE USKBA, about Marvin winning his Muay Thai title, it is at http://www.uskba.com/01_09.htm...

'''HERE I AM SIGNING THIS! THIS IS DAVID ROSS'''


 * Weak keep. Outside the San Da / Muay Thai / kick boxing circles, the organizations and their title holders are pretty obscure - but these aren't the only obscure topics in Wikipedia, by far.  We have a rich history of well documented articles on obscure topics, and I believe that is one of the things that makes Wikipedia the great resource it is (I can't count the number of times I've searched for something and been pleasantly surprised to find an article on Wikipedia about it).  Looking over various Wikipedia policies, there is almost nothing said about obscure topics - so that means we have to fall back on WP:Verifiability and WP:Notability.  Within the kick boxing circles, it looks like Marvin is notable, although the lack of truly independent third-party sources make that difficult to document.  I believe that the promoters and awarding organizations are primary sources, not independent secondary sources.  In short, we really need something like a newspaper/magazine write-up about Marvin to make this article complete, but I believe that it squeaks by verifiability and notability as it is currently.&mdash; Mrand  T-C 14:05, 13 October 2007 (UTC)
 * A primary source such as the IOC website for a medallist is fine, the question should be is the title notable enough (as an Olympic title would be). agree on the Notability =/= fame bit. --Nate1481(t/c) 10:43, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Reply on signing Here at Wikipedia, we sign our posts with 4 tildes-- ~ . This may have little or no bearing on our "real world" identities. For someone who is editing without a user id, it leaves an IP. It is something not obvious to new editors. Cheers, :) Dloh cierekim   19:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that these articles were never published online they were scanned from the actual magazine and placed on the kickboxing gym's web server

QIGONG WUSHU KUNG FU Magazine March 1999

Magazine Cover http://boston-kickboxing.com/march_1999/cover.jpg

USAWKF San Shou Article page 51 http://boston-kickboxing.com/march_1999/p51.jpg

Kung Fu QIGONG Magazine Nov/Dec 2001 Magazine Cover http://boston-kickboxing.com/Nov_Dec_2001/cover.jpg

IKF Born 2 Fight Event Results page 89 http://boston-kickboxing.com/Nov_Dec_2001/p89.jpeg


 * Delete As an autobiography which fails to provide adequate verification of notability with strong, independent sourcing. A few titles and features in a local kickboxing publication do not assert firm notability in anything but a trivial way. References to questionable sources lacking strong fact-checking and editorial review do not fulfill the need for reliable sourcing. Van Tucky  Talk 22:53, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment Seems you aren't aware that the magazines those scans are from are distributed INTERNATIONALLY. They are NOT "local kickboxing publication". I'd also like you to cite something that indicates that are "lacking strong fact-checking and editorial review". I'm sure that the editors (Gene Ching and Dave Cater) would strongly argue otherwise! Finally, you're attempting to dismiss someone who holds 2/3 of the important distinctions in the sport as someone who holds "a few titles"? When a pro boxer holds only the IBF and WBC belt but not the WBA belt, is he a local fighter who is not notable? 12.75.135.37 17:33, 17 October 2007 (UTC)


 * Comment Hmm, not aware of sources' "poor reputation for fact checking." If anything, these should be the experts in the field. Cheers, :) Dloh cierekim  23:03, 16 October 2007 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.