Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mason Stahl


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was delete after excluding multiple-voters, sockpuppet and anonymous IP votes. - Mailer Diablo 13:08, 28 October 2005 (UTC)

Mason Stahl
Vanity page Tom harrison 23:40, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Note: Identical article Spray (rapper) was created by same person as article author and has also been nominated for deletion (see Articles for deletion/Spray (rapper)). -- howcheng  [ talk &#149; contribs &#149; web ] 21:44, 25 October 2005 (UTC)

Does lack of fame make a vanity article?
 * Delete per nomination. - Tom harrison 23:40, 22 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Do Not Delete per nomination -Bostonjon 00:58, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Vanity page for NN teenager. Google search for "Mason Stahl" returns no hits that mention CD's. Eddie.willers 01:02, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Do Not Delete.

An article should not be dismissed as "vanity" simply because the subject is not famous. There is currently no consensus about what degree of recognition is required to justify a unique article being created in Wikipedia (although consensus exists regarding particular kinds of article, for instance see WP:MUSIC). Lack of fame is not the same as vanity.

Furthermore, an article is not "vanity" simply because it was written by its subject. Articles about existing books, movies, games, and businesses are not "vanity" so long as the content is kept to salient material and not overtly promotional.

Please heed the rules of wikipedia before deleting. Thank You.Bostonjon 01:11, 23 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Comment for Bostonjon. Do not confuse 'lack of fame' with the condition of 'not being vain'. The subject of the article in question is displaying conceit (ie: 'A favorable and especially unduly high opinion of one's own abilities or worth') and this makes the article a 'vanity' article and, hence, eligible for deletion. Eddie.willers 01:17, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Unverifiable. Pburka 01:38, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Insufficient context to establish notability. TheMadBaron 06:36, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Do not Delete. The claim that this data is not easily verifiable is, in my opinion no reason to delete it. I for one have actually seen Mason "Spray" Stahl performing at several spoken word/hip-hop concerts in the Boston area.     Your claims that information regarding Mason Stahl cannot be currently found on the web highlights the importance of this page on wikipedia.  Stahl needs to have his name entered onto the web at sometime and somewhere and there is no better place but wikipedia to document the information regarding Mason Stahl.  It does not seem fair to judge Mason Stahl's importance or significance on a google search for even if he did come up on google this does not mean that he is not important.  I for one am quite sure that this page is accurate for I have actually seen Mason Stahl in performance and have read a book of his poetry.  I strongly urge those considering the deletion of this page to heed my suggestions and acknowledge that while you may not have heard of Mason in your parts of the country he is known in and around the Boston area for his rapping and poetry.Bostonjon 15:25, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Vanity or not this is NN. No google hits that I can find and albums do not seem to be available anywhere. If Bostonjon would like to make a case for this within the context of WP:MUSIC please do so. --JJay 15:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC)


 * Do Not Delete. Let me remind you that I have heard Mason "Spray" Stahl rap in concert before and I own his second album "Elimihate". I too am surprised that no hits come up for him on google, however, I agree with the articles assessment of him as an "emerging rapper" for he is beginning to gain notoriety in the Boston area.  I would also like to make it clear that he is a poet and actually has a poetry book currently on sale in several Boston area independent bookshops.  I think that his rapping alone should qualify him for a wikipedia page but if that cannot be agreed upon then his poetic works should easily make him a candidate for a page.  I would like to finish by saying that many now famous poets went their whole lives without receiving due recognition and I feel that the wikipedia page on Mason Stahl is an accurate, fair, and necessary contribution to this encyclopedia.Bostonjon 16:06, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. Instead of making the same points over and over, please provide some citations for Mr. Stahl's work. Since you own his album, a record company and year of release would be helpful. As you have read his published poetry, perhaps you recall the publisher, year of publication etc. If someone can prove that a reputable publisher has published a book of Mr. Stahl's poetry, I would be happy to change my vote. --JJay 16:36, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Please keep. My children enjoy his rap, and think he is wicked hot. We recently saw him rapping in the streets of Harvard Square and can not get him off of our mind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 152.163.100.199 (talk • contribs) 02:28, 25 October 2005
 * Delete apparently NN; a picture without red eye would be good too. --MacRusgail 17:08, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. And Bostonjon,  please stop voting "Do Not Delete" over and over , you're only supposed to vote once. StarryEyes 18:24, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Do Not Delete I am shocked to see that this page is being considered for deletion. I am from Dorchester, Massachusetts (a part of Boston) and can corroborate the fact that Mason "Spray" Stahl is a rising player in the Boston hip/hop scene.  He has achieved a decent amount of notorioty among fans of hip/hip and poetry in the area and he is deserving of a page.  I strongly urge those considering the deletion of this page to not do so since they obviously are not familiar with the Boston hip/hop music scene.  "Spray" is undoubtedly an important part of the development of rap in the area and he should be recognized for his achievements.130.64.157.124 19:47, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Do Not Delete. I just noticed that Spray Stahl had an entry on wikipedia and was thrilled. I've been following this guy forever, he's going to be huge someday.  I saw that the article was up for deletion and that member "BostonJon" was the sole defender for this artists page.  If you want to call him just an "artist".  He's really a renaissance man.  He does it all.  Actually if you watch his documentary its cool because he during the credits he's actually the one rapping in that song "hate this".  My friend burned me all his CDs, so I dont have any of the information per se, but I know that I could find it in time.  Just don't delete this page yet and I'll try and find the info.  Try and be understanding, if I put a page up about my band, 23 cents, you probably wouldn't find anything online at all except the four tracks we put on Kazaa.  So, stay classy, and don't forget, even Jay-Z was an unknown once too, but that's the whole point of Wikipedia, to put more accessible information on the web...right? 130.64.157.66 19:52, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment - The above two votes are from anonymous "users" and thus should not be counted. Note the similarity in IP address, probably has a DHCP connection and just switched off and switched on his modem.  Also note the use of the phrase "Do Not Delete" instead of the more conventional "Keep"...much in the style of a certain Bostonjon, whom I enjoined to stop the ballot-stuffing.  My guess is he's not heeding.  StarryEyes 21:42, 23 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. This is a credible page and your moves to delete it are incredulous. Please acknowledge that "Spray" is a well-known rapper throughout Boston and therefore qualifies for a wikipedia page.Rapstar 19:23, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. No grounds for deletion and therefore I cannot in good conscious vote for a deletion of this page. Arr34 19:27, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment - Above two votes obvious Sockpuppets. After my notice that Bostonjon was still ballot-stuffing by making himself anonymous and typing in the same unfamiliar-with-Wikipedia style, he altered his style slightly (retaining of course abysmal spelling) and created two throwaway identities--whose only contribution to Wikipedia are these votes.  Just like the two anonymous votes above, they were submitted just minutes apart.  If you think the Wikipedia admins are dumb enough to fall for that, you're sorely mistaken.  Rest assured, Bostonjon, if your chicanery does manage to fool somebody, I will immediately submit to AFD again. Bottom line:  all keep/do-not-delete votes have been submitted by the same person  StarryEyes 20:49, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. Yes, Bostonjon's unbridled admiration and love for Mr. Stahl is quite amazing. As would be any evidence that Tufts freshman Mr. Stahl, despite his undeniable talent for self-aggrandizement, has ever published a poem or rapped outside his dorm room. --JJay 21:38, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. non-notable. --DropDeadGorgias (talk) 21:57, 24 October 2005 (UTC)
 * '"Keep"' Who cares about what this kid is doing to procrastinate? Its better than doing crack or beating up women and children.  So Mason "Spray" wants to beef up his "street cred" by pushing his image on wikipedia, SO WHAT?  You guys have been critizing him and BostonJon (PS, a "BlowJob" joke?), giving him all this crap.  Well if he's such a loser for pumping Spray on wikipedia during his free time, then you guys are just as bad for trying to get him knocked off wikipedia.  WHO CARES?  Honestly, I have no idea whether or not he exists, and truthfully, I dont care.  But BostonJon says he knows him, who's to say he doesn't?  Just go with the flow, people, go with the flow. -Zeppelin1969 {I hate you people} — Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.64.157.153 (talk • contribs) 02:20, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. This is ridiculous. This entire argument is ridiculous. There is no evidence that Spray exists or does not exist. Because there is no evidence that "Spray" exists, excepting of course this article, we must chose to delete. Unless of course this is his breakout article, the first of many to follow which will create the embediment of support for this up and coming rapper, then the fact that there is no evidence that he does not exist takes precedence and we must choose to keep. If, however, this is merely an attempt to create a false buzz over an unspectacular act trying to make a name for himself and his lyrical accomplishments, we must decide to delete. But, since there is at least one, and most likely more, fan of Mason Stahl and his verbal assault on the current rap scene, as evidenced by the time spent on the creation and support of this page we must assume that Mason 'Spray" Stahl has done something of a meritorious nature, worthy of his supporter's time and effort, so we must, ultimately choose to keep. -JEA — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.122.49.113 (talk • contribs) 02:51, 25 October 2005
 * DELETE. Starry is right: If you'll look closely, you'll see everything that is not a delete vote appears to be from the same user.  Also, take a gander at the edit history:  an anon user took off the "unsigned" tag from the Zeppelin1969 comment.  Stop the insanity, people.  (Person?)  Please, someone just delete this already.Xa! 09:18, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep So he's unpopular as of yet.  Does that mean his article should be deleted?  So his 'Albums' were either self-produced or produced by a tiny company.  Does that mean his article should be deleted?  Google The Yorkies or Bravo Charlie. Both are unknown groups from the Boston area produced on a label so small, you won't find references online.  They exist.  And just because those who support him are unfamiliar with wikipedia doesn't warrant a deletion.  Just keep it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.57.124 (talk • contribs) 15:08, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Comment. the above unsigned comment is from the same IP that authored the article Spray (rapper) on 25th October, which duplicates the content here. Eddie.willers 20:31, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete, doesn't meet WP:MUSIC criteria and other claims are not WP:V or are "crystal ball" in nature (i.e. purported forthcoming documentary)... plus more puppets than Sesame Street.--Isotope23 21:17, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Delete. Fails guidelines at WP:NMG. -- howcheng  [ talk &#149; contribs &#149; web ] 21:44, 25 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep. I must say that many of you should be ashamed of how you are conducting this discussion. Most of the votes calling for the deletion of this article are not based on anything legitimate and are simply due to a personal vendetta against Mason Stahl.  Some of you are criticizing his supporters because of their lack of knowledge regarding wikipedia conventions.  Others are trying to marginalize him by poking fun at the fact that there is red eye in his picture.  This behavior is immature and malicious.   It is comments like those that intimidate some people from making contributions to wikipedia.  We should all be grateful that this article was submitted and should hope for the expansion of this incredible resource.  Every contribution works towards our goal of achieving greater understanding of the universe.  To those who contributed this page, which I find no reason to question, I applaud you and to those of you who are trying to marginalize Mr. Stahl shame on you.  It is my dream to one day see wikipedia become a fountain of information that will educate the world and lift us out of this shroud of ignorance that is responsible for the problems facing the world today.  While a page concerning a rapper may seem insignificant to some we must approach this topic in an objective manner and realize that to many people throughout the globe rap is a powerful force that is capable of great change.  I once again strongly urge all of you to vote to keep this page. Muzakman 16:48, 26 October 2005 (UTC) Note: all user's edits save one in relation to article and this AFD
 * That's right. Mason Stahl killed Kenny. The bastard!!! Seriously though, have you even read the guidelines at WP:NMG? If Spray meets any of those guidelines, please provide proof and we'll gladly reconsider the case. Otherwise, the article is going to be deleted. -- howcheng  [ talk &#149; contribs &#149; web ] 15:44, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep!! I also attend Tufts University, where Mason is well-known for his rhymes - nonnotable he definitely is NOT. As well, I've seen him filming his new movie around campus, so whoever claims his page is unverifiable is obviously just looking in the wrong places. Xoxomandeeness Note: user's first and only edit
 * Comment i already voted keep, so i wont again. i also duplicated the page under Spray (rapper).  you caught me.  see, i really thought id be able to trick you. guess not.  in any case, i agree (in principle) with muzakman.  while i have my doubts that wikipedia will put an end to world hunger, prejudice, and hate, i do agree that the idea is to post useful information for others to read and learn about.  the fact that you all dont know about spray is perfect reason to keep him on wikipedia.  and the reason so many of the Keep votes are newcomers is beacuse in the boston area (particularly Tufts campus) he's well known, and theres a bit of a word-of-mouth campaign to save this page on pricniple.  im not in the area right now (actually in europe), but i have some friends that are attending tufts and i did meet spray shortly before i left this year.  hes real.  whether or not there's other information on the internet, the stuff here is real.  and thats why i duplicated it, becuase its deserves to stay up.  i didnt expect the dupe to stay long, and i was right.  egal.  take care. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.83.63.14 (talk • contribs) 10:59, 27 October 2005 (UTC)
 * Keep I am in total agreement with the person writing above. This page has even greater value than many other pages because it is (as far as I know) the only comprehensive source on information about Mason "Spray" Stahl.  The argument that since no other information is easily found on Mr. Stahl we should choose to delete him is unsound and lacks any real logical foundation.  Why, I ask you, would we want wikipedia to become simply a source that replicated information already available.  We want wikipedia to become a source that that not only organizes, expands, and codifies information that is already available but also becomes a source for new developments in the realm of global information.  Let me posit a scenario in which those who have voted to delete this page had found existing information about Mr. Stahl on the web.  Would you then have deemed this page to be one of value to the wikipedia informational catalogue.  You probably would have and that is where your logic (or lack thereof) fails me.  Those sites would signal to you that he is notable because someone invested time to create and maintain those pages.  Well then this wikipedia page should also be an indicator of Mr. Stahl's significance in the rap community because like any other webpage this wikipedia page too took some fan's time to create.  This fan had the noble goal of making previously unknown information available to the entire world.  To this fan I commend your efforts to help in the education of humanity.  I also want to highlight the outpouring of support and discussion concerning this page by so many people which seems to illuminate the fact the Mr. Stahl does have a following and is therefore significant.  This logic that since no other pages currently exist about a person/topic means it should be deemed insignificant is both a great injustice to goals of wikipedia and is a terrible policy to abide by.  Was Emily Dickinson famous in her lifetime?  No.  She lived in ananomity and was only discovered posthumosly.  With the advent of the internet I believed that the dissemination of information would help to prevent this from happening again.  I urge you not to let a whole generation miss out on the enrichment and enjoyment that can be derived from knowing about and experiencing Mr. Stahl's work.  I for one will fight to ensure that Mr. Stahls messages are spread throughout the world in this present day and I will commit myself to the struggle against the inequity that would befall both Mr. Stahl and the international community should he be silenced by his opponents.  Thank you Arr34 17:12, 27 October 2005 (UTC). NOTE: user already voted above.
 * User:Arr34 asks, "Why, I ask you, would we want wikipedia to become simply a source that replicated information already available." Answer: Because that's what Wikipedia is. It's an encyclopedia. Articles need to be verifiable. Wikipedia is not a free host or webspace provider. If Spray needs a place to put up information about himself, he should make a web page with an ISP, or on MySpace. That is the glory that is the Internet. Once he becomes an established rapper/artist that meets inclusion guidelines, then he deserves a Wikipedia article. -- howcheng  [ talk &#149; contribs &#149; web ] 18:03, 27 October 2005 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.