Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Massacres in Erzurum (1895)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep. A merge doesn't need an AFD to effect and there is clearly a consensus this is noteworthy. Further discussion on the article talk can determine whether we go with a standalone or merged content Spartaz Humbug! 18:29, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Massacres in Erzurum (1895)



 * 1895 "Massacres in Erzurum" -Llc (1) ?
 * 1895 "Massacre in Erzurum" -Llc 1
 * 1895 "Erzurum massacre" -Llc 0
 * 1895 "Erzurum massacres" -Llc 0
 * 1895 "massacres at Erzurum" -Llc 0

It's impossible to keep as an independent article with existing sources. Most of all sources in this article are too old and not secondary soruces. We'd better merge to Hamidian massacres. Takabeg (talk) 00:05, 28 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Armenia-related deletion discussions.  —Takabeg (talk) 00:14, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Turkey-related deletion discussions.  —Takabeg (talk) 00:14, 28 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep Although I don't understand what Wikipedia policy disallows sources that the nominator considers "old", there are plenty of other sources available. The searches listed by the nominator are too narrow, as the use of quotation marks requires that the exact phrase be present.  I searched Google Books without quotes with three terms: 1895, massacre and +Erzurum.  Here are some possible additional sources for the article, The Burning Tigris: The Armenian Genocide and America's Response, A Shameful Act: The Armenian Genocide and the Question of Turkish Responsibility, The great game of genocide: imperialism, nationalism, and the destruction of the Ottoman Armenians, The Armenian massacres in Ottoman Turkey: a disputed genocide, Crime of Numbers: The Role of Statistics in the Armenian Question (1878-1918), and British diplomacy and the Armenian question: from the 1830s to 1914.  I am not saying that every one of these sources is of the highest quality; however, as a group, they convince me that the 1895 massacres in this city are notable.  Cullen 328   Let's discuss it  02:04, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Do sources that you shew above refer to this event ? For example, Fuat Dündar's Crime of Numbers: The Role of Statistics in the Armenian Question (1878-1918) (p. 142.) refers to "Sassoun massacre" and "Consul General at Erzurum". But it doesn't refer to "massacre in Erzurum". Takabeg (talk) 02:33, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * As I said above, I don't claim that every one of the sources I provided is of the highest quality, but taken as a group, I believe that they show the notability of the events in Erzurum.  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  02:41, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * I don't say that there was massacre in Erzrum in 1895. I say that it's difficult to keep as independent article. According to US and British newspapers at the time, we can know the numbers of victims (10,000 victims in Urfa, 5,000 victims in Malatya, 4,000 victims in Arapgir, 3,000 victims in Diyâr-i Bekir, 3,000 victims in Bitlis, 2,000 victims in Erzincan, 2,000 victims in Gürün, 2,000 in Harput, 1,500 victims in Sivas, 1,100 victims in Trabzon, 1,000 victims in Marash etc.). But we don't have specific and enough information about those massacres. In short it's very difficult for us to create articles such as Massacre in Urfa (1895), Massacre in Malatya (1895), Massacre in Arapgir (1895), Massacre in Diyâr-i Bekir (1895), Massacre in Bitlis (1895), Massacre in Erzincan (1895), Massacre in Gürün (1895), Massacre in Harput (1895), Massacre in Sivas (1895), Massacre in Trabzon (1895), Massacre in Marash (1895). Thus I proposed to merge it to Hamidian massacres. Takabeg (talk) 02:57, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * That may or may not be true of the other massacres you mention. However, pages 128-129 of The Burning Tigris: The Armenian Genocide and America's Response goes into considerable detail about the Erzurum massacre, quoting from extensive contemporary coverage in the British newspaper The Graphic.  Those articles are called "what must be one of the most extraordinary pieces of photojournalism of the era". Google Books only lets me see those two pages, but it appears that the coverage continues onto following page(s).  So, we have newspaper coverage from that era, and historical analysis many years later, of the specific events in Erzurum.  Cullen 328   Let's discuss it  03:17, 28 July 2011 (UTC)


 * Speedy Keep The nomination is arguing for merger not deletion. Warden (talk) 06:36, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep and Merge to Erzurum massacres without the date in the title. But ofcourse the merger discussion doesn't need to take place here.  Nipson anomhmata   (Talk) 15:51, 28 July 2011 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.