Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Max Kaur (Jermakov)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. I have completely discounted the SPA and IP votes. Appears to be a BLP without RS. The delete arguments are therefore the policy based ones and coincide with community expectations concerning the requirement for BLPs to have RS. Spartaz Humbug! 04:44, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

Max Kaur (Jermakov)

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Recreation of article deleted at WP:Articles for deletion/Max Kaur from a WP:SPA. The article name has been changed in an apparent attempt to escape watchlists. No reason for the DAB qualifier other than evading people watching the article. Additional reference has been added that does not appear to mention him but most of the article is behind a paywall. noq (talk) 01:03, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Estonia-related deletion discussions.  —Bgwhite (talk) 06:03, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Bgwhite (talk) 06:03, 31 October 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment I am a historian, your talking don`t have any sense. a) articel on ru.wikupedia b) articel et.wikipedia c) The Baltic Times articles are ABOUT mr Max Kaur.  "The article name has been changed in an apparent attempt to escape watchlists." WHAT? Hey you ! a) articel on ru.wikupedia b) articel on et.wikipedia. I warning you: next step is call to Flordia. User:Marbella112 (User talk:Marbella112) 03:21, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Why was the (Jermakov) added? There is no current page at Max Kaur which is also the name used on the other wikis. It is a very strange disambiguation and no disambiguation is needed. What do you mean by call Flordia (sic)? noq (talk) 12:59, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "Why was the (Jermakov) added?" Because in England living another Max Kaur and ouer Max Kaur birth name was Jermakov. User:Marbella112 (User talk:Marbella112) 23:19, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Also, why and how did you also include warning templates dating from the 2009 version of the page when you created this version? noq (talk) 13:04, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Look..."the 2009 version" do not exist... (cur | prev) 15:52, 6 September 2008‎ MVK2009 (talk | contribs)‎ (1,887 bytes) (← Created page with '== MAX KAUR == Image:Näidis.jpg Max Kaur (was born on December, 9th 1969 Tallinn, Estonia, EU) Estonian politician, for a long time has been the adviser of...'). I mistakenly put a warning temples because this was copy /past error from another article, not from "Max Kaur". Marbella112 (Marbella112) 23:04, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete - The notability of this politician has not been established for English language version of Wikipedia with reliable, verifiable sources. The guidelines for notability are not universal, as consensus is established by the users on each project; therefore inclusion on one language Wikipedia does not automatically justify inclusion in all. Sea photo Talk  02:21, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom, Seaphoto, and WP:VRS.  —  Jeff G. ツ  (talk)   02:27, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep The references in the article are to reliable sources that he is a city councilor of Tallin, the capital city of Estonia. To quote WP:POLITICIAN, "Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage. Generally speaking, mayors of cities of at least regional importance are likely to meet this criterion, as are members of the main citywide government or council of a major metropolitan city."  Kaur fulfills this requirement.  There are also plenty of news sources to be found about him and some are not so nice.  To the nominator, the article was deleted three years ago and alot can change as Kaur was elected in 2009.  Being a SPA in an AfD discussion is relevant, but not for a nomination. Being a SPA means neither good nor bad as we must take into what the article says and not who wrote it when nominating an article. Bgwhite (talk) 06:00, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment I only mentioned the SPA as the page was recreated from an oldre version complete with warning tags about POV and COI and SPA was mentioned in the original debate. It was not the reason for the nomination. noq (talk) 13:04, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Delete. Promotional article about a small-time politician, who is known mainly for self-promotion on the Internet. This article is almost certainly self-created as well. -- Sander Säde 06:38, 31 October 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. Sander Säde`s opinion is a politically motivated opinion. Max Kaur is not a small-time politician. Search form Google. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.65.209.239 (talk) 12:26, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment On what basis do you conclude Sander Sade's opinion is politically motivated? noq (talk) 12:59, 3 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment See about his involvement : "Rein Lang". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.65.209.239 (talk • contribs) 00:02, 4 November 2011
 * Considering I'm about as apolitical as it is possible to get while still breathing and don't care about Rein Lang, what is your point? Googling for Max Kaur gives a handful of newspaper articles where he is just mentioned and some "..has relationship with.., ..lost virginity.." type yellow journalism garbage. However, you'll find that there is Max Kaur's blog, Max Kaur's Twitter, Max Kaur's Facebook, Max Kaur's Youtube videos and so forth... but next to nothing about him as a politician. -- Sander Säde 07:37, 4 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep. Sander Säde: "nothing about him as a politician." Really? http://www.ohtuleht.ee/252200; http://www.ekspress.ee/news/paevauudised/eestiuudised/max-kaur-sobrad-kogunevad-tammsaare-parki-kasiinode-vastu-meelt-avaldama.d?id=27677297; http://uudised.err.ee/index.php/www.pohjarannik.ee/index.php?06171485; http://wwx.tarbija24.ee/180707/esileht/siseuudised/256129.php; http://www.just24.ee/?news=914617; http://wwx.tarbija24.ee/060707/esileht/siseuudised/270361.php; http://www.hip.ee/180207/esileht/olulised_teemad/riigikogu_2007/eesti_keskerakond/245628_foto.php; http://www.ohtuleht.ee/237151; http://www.delfi.ee/news/paevauudised/arvamus/max-kaur-paastame-kas-voi-uhe-pere.d?id=16510913; and more -  http://ise.elnet.ee/search~S1*est/?searchtype=X&searcharg=Max+Kaur&searchscope=2&SORT=D&extended=0&SUBMIT=OTSI+&searchlimits=&searchorigarg=.b1159230Marbella112 (Marbella112) 13:56, 3 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep. "Major local political figures who have received significant press coverage." Max Kaur is a most mentioned Centre Party politician in Estonian media. MK2009: (MK2009:) 15:56, 3 November 2011 (UTC) Comment added by


 * Keep because he's a member of the Russian Academic Society of Estonia. Also This nomination mashes several faulty assumptions together.
 * 1) Violation of the COI policy is not a valid reason for deletion.
 * 2) While sources are preferred in English on the English language Wikipedia, sources in Estonian are totally acceptable. - Mannextdoor:|Mannextdoor: 16.00, 3 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mannextdoor (talk • contribs)


 * neutral please note, that this is not a voting-page. Therefor it makes no sense do add further voting-accounts to assist the single-purpose-account, who created this article. --Gf1961 (talk) 05:08, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 *  Keep I am not interesting about your view. We talk about article. --Marbella112 (talk) 17:52, 5 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I can accept, if you are not interested to hear my view. I can also accept, if you meant to say that you are not interesting in my view. Your activating of puppet-claqueurs has been adressed as useless. --Gf1961 (talk) 16:43, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep Mr.Max Kaur - patron of Youth Jewish Council of Estonia. --LA2011(talk) 15:40, 5 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.150.65.84 (talk)


 *  Keep  Mr.Kaur - chairman of the Institute of Society Development (Estonia).- MK2009 (MK2009) 15:56, 5 November 2011 (UTC) Comment added by


 * Comment There is no need to repeatedly say Keep. However I would like you to answer the questions I asked earlier. It seems clear that the majority of Keep proponents are single purpose accounts and some could be WP:Sockpuppets. User:Marbella112 recreated the page with a copy of the originally deleted article. User:MK2009 does not appear to have made any edits that have not been deleted. Should that be User:MVK2009 - who created the original article. LA2011 does not appear to exist as an editor but added the comment from the same IP address as MK2009 just before MK2009 posted his second keep !vote. noq (talk) 12:16, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment I don`t know who this MK2009 is, maybe Max Kaur? And so what? These users: Bgwhite; MK2009; LA2011; Mannnextdoor; has absolutely nothing to do with Marbella 112. But I know that account "Noq" is single purpose account - delete another peoples work on Wikipedia, no single contribution from this "Noq"! Marbella112 (Marbella112) 15:38, 6 November 2011 (UTC) Comment added by
 * Comment What? You really should try to vary the way you add things here if you are going to use different names - and you still have not explained how you independently recreated the original deleted article complete with dated warning templates. noq (talk) 14:10, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "you independently recreated the original deleted article" no, it`s orginal article from Marbella112, look. " with dated warning templates." I made a mistake and I fixed it, look. Marbella112 (Marbella112) 20:45, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * It is pretty obvious those SPA's are either sockpuppets or meatpuppets (Max Kaur's party has a youth section, which has been known to behave in a similar way). However, closing admin will disregard their votes in any case, as this is not a voting. And Noq, you are doing a great work patrolling new pages, keep it up. -- Sander Säde 14:55, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Considering the fact that Marbella112's behaviour actually is harming Mr. Kaur's reputation in a way, even a half-witted politician would be clever enough to avoid, your explanation with misled party-youth seems quite imaginable. MK2009/MVK2009 also edit on et (Max Kaur article exclusively) and was the author of the 2008 deleted article. --Gf1961 (talk) 17:00, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment "MK2009/MVK2009 also edit on et (Max Kaur article exclusively) and was the author of the 2008 deleted article. " For me it is abosolutly okey, because Estonian president Toomas Hendrik Ilves create his page himself also in Wikipedia and edit his page also. I am not MK2009/MVK2009. Marbella112 (Marbella112) 20:22, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment Who do you claim is The Estonian proesident editing Toomas Hendrik Ilves? Where did you get the original text of the deleted article? noq (talk) 18:49, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * that`s correct - Ilvese create his page on Wikipedia and edit his page also. Look edit history Toomas Hendrik Ilves and media about his page. Reason : Wikipedia rule about living person Marbella112 (Marbella112) 21:18, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment So User:Academic Challenger is the president of Estonia? As well as an administrator on the English Wikipedia? noq (talk) 19:55, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Toomas Hendrik Ilves staff informed the press 2006 that they created the page and he only say what information is right by Wikipedia rule about living person. Marbella112 (Marbella112) 22:44, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "Where did you get the original text of the deleted article? " what you're thinking specifically? Marbella112 (Marbella112) 21:25, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment The edit that created the page. noq (talk) 19:55, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * I do not understand what you want, but my page is nothing do with page "Max Kaur" created by MK2009/MVK2009.Marbella112 (Marbella112) 22:40, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep I think that Mr Max Kaur both Estonian and European politician worthy to be presented to Wikipedia. --Johannes xz (talk) 20:27, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment: Sander Säde : "It is pretty obvious those SPA's are either sockpuppets or meatpuppets (Max Kaur's party has a youth section, which has been known to behave in a similar way)." Where is the evidence? But nothing new about Sander Säder, look: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents/Daniel_Case Marbella112 (Marbella112) 20:34, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep Max Kaur, politician, deserves to be in Wikipedia because of Tallinn City Council member (remember those who have forgotten that Tallinn is one of the capitals of the European Union) manages an important committee of the Tallinn City Council --Aleksss19 (talk) 20:46, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 *  Keep  Mr. Max Kaur involved in politics in Estonia for more than 15 years. Although Im young, but I remember Max Kaur as a politician for a long time. Since 1999 Mr. Max Kaur is working in the popular party "Centre party" in Estonia. Kaur was political advisor of the head of the party Mr. Edgar Savisaar(Estonian Prime minister from 1990 to 1992). --Johannes xz (talk) 21:41, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment You said keep already - saying it again does not make it count more. noq (talk) 19:55, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 *  Keep and move to Max Kaur  (See below) 's sources above establish notability. Kaur receives significant coverage from independent reliable sources—"Max Kaur hakkab Olympicu kontori ees meelt avaldama", "Max Kaur on endiselt Tallinna linnapea nõunik", and "Max Kaur korraldab juba teist kasiinodevastast kampaaniat" from Postimees and "Max Kaur & sõbrad kogunevad Tammsaare parki kasiinode vastu meelt avaldama" and "Maksim Jermakovist sai integratsiooninõunik Kaur" from Eesti Ekspress. Goodvac (talk) 19:56, 6 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Keep because Max Kaur is a serious politician defending the rights of Jews in Estonia. - Mannextdoor:|Mannextdoor: 00.32, 7 November 2011 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mannextdoor (talk • contribs)
 * Comment We heard you the first time - again no need to repeat keep. Funny how your signature has the same mistake as most of the other SPAs that have contributed to this debate. noq (talk) 08:06, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This is not serious talk at all. We talk about an article, not about signature. Marbella112 (Marbella112) 19.42, 7 November 2011 (UTC) Comment added by
 * Delete At the last AfD, I said to delete; since then a number of AfDs have changed our interpretation of WP:POLITICIAN to accept   that anyone on the city council of a large city like Tallinn (420,000) is presumptively notable, but I think extending this to a single year in office is not rational. Judging by the GTranslate versions of the articles cited, they are entirely based on his PR, and therefore not reliable, no matter where they have been published. If kept, the article, small as it is,  needs yet further editing to remove unencyclopedic and promotional material and photographs relating to his personal campaign against casinos. As for some of the arguments above, promoting the interests of a minority in a part of the world where they have long been persecuted is highly honorable, but not everyone who does it is notable   DGG ( talk ) 04:03, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Do you have a link to his PR? I'd like to compare it with the news articles. Goodvac (talk) 04:56, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * the meaning is that the article reads as if it was written by his publicity staff I am thinking above all of the one on the details of his depression--read for yourself and tell me if it represents   non-tabloid journalism. This sort of thing is why interviews with the individual are suspect as news stories and need to be examined critically before accepting them--they are normally an opportunity for the interviewee to speak about himself and say whatever they care to . Some are excuses for him to campaign against  casinos. I was prepared to accept this version of the article until I actually read the references  DGG ( talk ) 14:53, 7 November 2011


 * I've reread the articles, and I see your point. The first four articles I listed above are about some casino demonstration. The last one seems tabloid-like now that I've read it in detail. I've withdrawn my keep comment. Goodvac (talk) 18:59, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * What? Postimees ( Schibsted) is a tabloid:)???, http://www.tallinnapostimees.ee/415692/tallinna-volikogu-korrakaitsekomisjoni-esimeheks-sai-max-kaur/; http://wwx.tarbija24.ee/200407/esileht/siseuudised/256129.php; http://kanal2.ee/news/article/Max-Kaur-Tallinna-Vee-juhtkond-peaks-uputuse-kahjud-kinni-maksma; http://wwx.tarbija24.ee/280106/esileht/siseuudised/tallinn/189894.php; etc; etc Marbella112 (Marbella112) 01:38, 8 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "a single year in office is not rational." single year? he is elected 2009, but was important CP person from 2002. "the articles cited, they are entirely based on his PR", ridiculous claims - there are hundreds of the news articles from mainstream media. "is personal campaign against casinos." of course and is personal campaign " Occupy Wall Street" too:)Marbella112 (Marbella112) 15:58, 7 November 2011 (UTC) Comment added by
 * "important in" "advisor to" and similar terms are puffery. Actually having an office can be significant.  DGG ( talk ) 14:53, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Yes,and Max Kaur is a Chairman of the Law Enforcement Commission of the City Council. Kaur is a former vice-mayor of the city of Maardu.Marbella112 (Marbella112) 19:49, 7 November 2011 (UTC) Comment added by
 * If that position is actually head of the police force, it has been recognized as being notable for a very few of the largest cities; but it does not necessarily mean more than chairman of an oversight committee, which I do not think usually has been.  DGG ( talk ) 22:00, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * "minority in a part of the world where they have long been persecuted". What part of that world would that be, I thought Max Kaur was active in Estonia? You might want to read History of the Jews in Estonia. -- Sander Säde 05:52, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * My wording wasdeliberate to show I was aware that there was less anti-semitisim in Estonia than eslewhere in the Baltics, and I would not have mentioned it except that one of the editos above gave it as the  reason for supporting him.  DGG ( talk ) 14:53, 7 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Keep Mr. Max Kaur member of the International Movement "World without Nazism." The international movement of "A world without Nazism" is represented in the U.S., Russia, France and other European Union countries! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Apolinsky7 (talk • contribs) 11:54, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * Comment being a member of an organisation does not make you notable. BTW what brought you to this page to express an opnion - you and so many others with no previous interest in wikipedia? noq (talk) 12:06, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * it is perfectly reasonable that his supporters should show up here,there is no reason to blame them for it. But this doesn't mean we need take  what they say seriously. DGG ( talk ) 14:53, 7 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Speedy delete per G4. This is an exact copy of Max Kaur which was deleted through Articles for deletion/Max Kaur. Beagel (talk) 20:47, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * This is not an exact copy of Max Kaur, this is not a copy of Max Kaur. Look: Max Kaur https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:MVK2009 and Max Kaur(Jermakov) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Kaur_(Jermakov) Marbella112 (Marbella112) 19:49, 7 November 2011 (UTC)


 *  Keep  All these opinions who say that this article must be deleted, is were subjective. You say that Max Kaur is not notable person in estonian politic, this is very subjective statement. You always can say that articles about political person is PR, BUT that is although very subjective. You say that Estonia is a small country, and persons, who do politic in small state are not important, but that is chauvinism! You are full with anger! You say that men how defend rights of jews in Estonia and Europe is not notable person! So I can say that You are  anti-Semite!  If you delete this article I will complain to the Arbitration Court of Wikipedia! Article about Max Kaur must be in english wikipedia!  Mannextdoor — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mannextdoor (talk • contribs) 21:48, 7 November 2011
 * the argument that it is a small country (or city) has not been made; I agree it would have been invalid had it been made, for we treat all countries equally. He was, very unfortunately,  referred to above as "a small-time politician"--that was a term of abuse, and should not have been said. The comment that some or all of us are anti-Semetic casts discredit on you, however, and should not have been made either. I can only excuse you on the basis that, not being familiar with WP,  you might not have realized we do not engage in personal attack, and certainly not in those terms.  DGG ( talk ) 22:23, 7 November 2011 (UTC)
 * DGG: "But this doesn't mean we need take what they say seriously"In Wikipedia, we discuss the content, not the editors, personal attacks will get you blocked, not elected. User:Marbella112 01:52, 8 November 2011 (UTC)


 * Comment Firstly, Sander, Noq and DDG - stop telling people about "supporters", for example, I read wikipedia all the time - english, estonian and sometimes russian, and I'm watching how WP is developing: articles are being discussed, edited, added etc. Especially I watch after english and estonian (because I'm Estonian). I don't understand arguments (like "doesn't make you notable", "PR only") of people, who are against this article. Why? We read and speak about a man, who is famous in Estonia, in Tallinn and has recommended himself on a international arena, presenting Estonia in serious international organizations. This is ridicilous what you are saying ("youth section of party" etc - it this serious? DDG). - I can say the same thing about "supporters" - why so many supporters of deletion came here? I think we have a lack of NEUTRALISM here, in discussion and I agree about idea with the Arb.Court of WP would add some justice. See the facts. What's the problem in personality? -- Johannes xz ( talk ) 00:08, 8 November 2011
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.