Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Meaning Therapy


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete and redirect to Paul T. P. Wong. Sarahj2107 (talk) 10:51, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Meaning Therapy

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I do not consider this a distinct subject. It is one of the theoretical concerns of its notable inventor, and has been written by his declared representative. Taking their word for it, as discussing in the article it is a variation of Logotherapy ,developed by "integrating logotherapy with cognitive behavioral therapy. He then extended the integration to humanistic-existential therapy and positive psychotherapy." It is then stated that "The main difference between MT and Frankl’s logotherapy is that MT is more integrative and inclusive." and that "The biggest difference between MT and other meaning-oriented approaches is that MT incorporates the humanistic perspective of treating clients as fellow human beings worthy of dignity and respect and believing in their potential for healing and personal growth."

I don't think this claim defines anything: Unless I am mistaken, all psychotherapeutic methods make the same claim, to incorporate this perspective, thought  they they may use slightly different words to formulate it. If in some way the actual practice of the method is different from others, the article does not explain it. Nor is the criticism specific: "Most of the common criticisms directed to humanistic-existential therapy are applicable to MT."

The only references to use the phrase in the title are written by Wong. I know Wong is consider a very distinguished psychotherapist, and his works get great attention. What make a therapist important is is his influence over his pupils and colleagues, and also his renown to the general public Based on his bio, Paul T. P. Wong is unquestionably notable under WP:PROF,  WP:AUTHOR, and the GNG.

The description of the method is already part of the section  Existential philosophy" in  the article on him, where many of the key phrases of this article are repeated.  There's no harm in making a split for a portion of a fmous person's work, provided there is something specific to say about it.  I do no  see that here  DGG ( talk ) 18:17, 1 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Behavioural science-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 01:50, 2 November 2016 (UTC)


 * The subject might merit an article, but not in its presesent form, which amounts to advertising and promotion. There is significant duplicaiton of material already covered in Logotherapy. I am not a specialist in this area but it would seem that the article is an attempt to lend credibility to "meaning therapy" as a distinct offshoot of the Logotherapy technique developed by Frankl. Also, the main editor of the article is a paid employee of the Paul T Wong, according to his/her talk page. The main text strikes me as original research supported by opportunistic references. The actual term "meaning therapy" appears once in the voluminous reference list. I suggest Delete (+ ion) therapy. 104.163.140.57 (talk) 03:21, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
 * Thanks for the feedback. I will revise accordingly and respond to the concerns you have raised afterwards. Evelyn Mak (talk) 19:34, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sam Walton (talk) 10:56, 9 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete. It is hard for non-experts to judge a case like this, but nom is right that Wong is the principal user of the term (making it non-notable), whether or not the approach in fact leads to a distinct branch of therapy. The promotional tone and the paid editing are at least important warning signals that a conflict of interest appears to be involved here. Wong's approach is already sufficiently covered in his article, so merging is not an option. I therefore agree with nom that we should delete. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:35, 9 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Delete and Redirect to Paul T. P. Wong. (had this open prior to the extraordinary amount of text was added below, which I will state for the record I have not yet read and will have to go through later -- given the promotional quality of the work, I'd recommend that, best case scenario, it be moved to Draft until completely revised) -- Wong does look to be notable, but I came to the same conclusion as DGG. It's both insufficiently distinct from logotherapy and egregiously promotional. Likewise the Wong article and second wave positive psychology (I'll go with DGG's evaluation that it's not promotional enough to TNT, but for SWPP and Wong's article, I'd advocate for either major cuts or for them to be moved to Draftspace pending revision to make them less promotional). &mdash;  Rhododendrites  talk  \\ 00:22, 16 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Response from Article's Author;

I apologize in advance for the long response. I can understand the above critiques against the article, as I do not think it was written as well as it could have been. Although I am a Wikipedia newbie, and the fact that I am a current employee of Paul Wong is a strike against me as an unbiased writer (I am trying my best!), I will still try to show why I believe that this article should not be deleted, but rather edited (perhaps you can help using the information I present below).

I will (1) propose a title change and (2) show why Meaning Therapy (MT) is a distinct approach to therapy that is notable enough among authors, editors, researchers, and practitioners in not only psychology, but also coaching and the medical field to warrant a Wikipedia article.


 * 1.0 Title of the Article: “Meaning Therapy” to “Meaning-Centered Counselling

In hindsight, the title “Meaning Therapy” (MT) may be misleading because it is a short form of “Meaning-Centered Counseling and Therapy” (MCCT).

The name of this therapy has evolved in Wong’s writings over the years—from “Meaning-Centered Counseling” (1997, 1998, 2005, 2006, 2008) and “Meaning-Centered Counseling and Therapy” (1999, 2010, 2011, 2012) to more recently, “Meaning Therapy” (2010, 2015, 2016). Furthermore, in terms of MT/MCCT’s unique nature of integrating existential psychology and positive psychology, its interventions have also recently been called “Existential Positive Interventions” (2016). Please see Wong’s CV for these publications.

On one hand, the original chapter on “Meaning-Centered Counseling” (1998) has been most cited, at 282 times according to Google Scholar. On the other hand, “Meaning Therapy” seems to be the term that is used more recently not only by Wong, but also by other researchers/practitioners (see examples below). However, it may be more appropriate to name the page “Meaning-Centered Counseling and Therapy” because it is the most complete title.

''Please note that MT/MCCT is distinct from “Meaning-Centered Psychotherapy,” an approach almost entirely based on logotherapy developed by William Breitbart for patients with advanced cancer. The name MCP does not seem to have been used by Wong in his publications.''


 * 2.0 Distinct Approach ;

First, I will try to show how MT/MCCT is a distinct approach to therapy. Second, I will try to show that MT/MCCT has been recognized as a distinct approach by textbook writers and journal editors, researchers, and practitioners in therapy and coaching.


 * 2.1 How it is Distinct;

Wong’s MT/MCCT is a distinct therapeutic approach (particularly from logotherapy and existential therapy) because it is pluralistic, integrative, and cross-cultural.

Pluralistic. MT/MCCT has been pluralistic from its inception (see Wong’s first article on MT/MCCT in 1997), whereas logotherapy and traditional existential therapy are not and do not claim to be (see the Wikipedia articles). The only other pluralistic approach to existential therapy is Mick Cooper’s “Pluralistic Counselling and Psychotherapy,” an approach focuses on diverse human desires. In contrast, Wong’s approach focuses on diverse aspects of meaning (e.g., cognitive meaning, affective meaning, spiritual meaning) and is more widely recognized.

Integrative. More than pluralistic, MT/MCCT is also integrative. First, MT/MCCT integrates existential psychology (particularly logotherapy) with positive psychology. That is why MT/MCCT is also known as “Existential Positive Interventions” (2016). Wong first coined the term “Existential Positive Psychology” (2009) in his entry for Wiley’s Encyclopedia of Positive Psychology (Vol. 1, edited by S. J. Lopez). Since then, other publications have emphasized this integration, such as Springer’s two volumes, Meaning in Positive and Existential Psychology (2014, edited by A. Batthyany & P. Russo-Netzer) and Clinical Perspectives on Meaning: Positive and Existential Psychotherapy (2016, edited by P. Russo-Netzer, S. E. Schulenberg, & A. Batthyany).

Second, MT/MCCT integrates logotherapy with humanistic psychology. The criticism section on the logotherapy page shows that Rollo May, one of the most prominent humanistic psychologists, was a big critique of logotherapy because of it authoritarianism (i.e., lack of empathy towards clients, not giving clients responsibility, etc.). However, MT/MCCT integrates the two by applying a person-centered (i.e., humanistic) approach to logotherapy, which is reflected in MT/MCCT’s motto, “Meaning is all we have; relationship is all we need” (emphasis added). In fact, Wong has been recently recognized by the Society for Humanistic Psychology (Div. 32 of the APA) with the [Carl Rogers Award] for the importance of this contribution to humanistic psychology. [Wong’s acceptance speech] gives more details about this integration.

I think the cross-cultural aspect of Wong’s approach also makes it distinct in both existential and positive therapies, but the above is probably sufficient in showing how his MT/MCCT is unique from other therapeutic approaches.


 * 2.2 Recognized as Distinct;

Textbook authors, journal editors, and encyclopedias. Textbooks on counselling and therapy recognize MT/MCCT as a distinct approach. For instance, Mick Cooper’s textbooks, Existential Therapies the 1st edition (2003, p. 57) and 2nd edition (2016, p. 82) and Existential Psychotherapy and Counselling (2015, p. 15) all list Wong’s “Meaning Centered Counselling” as a unique meaning-oriented therapy. Another example is Nancy Murdock’s Theories of Counseling and Psychotherapy: A Case Approach (2012).

Handbook and journal editors have also recognized MT/MCCT as distinct, as seen in Wong’s invited chapters and articles. For instance, chapter 19 of Wiley’s Handbook of Motivational Counseling (2011, edited by W. M. Cox & E. Klinger) authored by Wong is completely on “Meaning-Centered Counseling and Existential Perspectives on Relationship Therapy (2013, edited by E. van Deurzen & S. Iacovou). Although it is titled “The Challenge of Communication: A Meaning-Centered Perspective,” the content shows the chapter is largely about his MT/MCCT.

Wong has also been invited to publish in Journal of Existential Analysis (2015), Journal of Contemporary Psychology (2012), Directions in Psychiatry (2013) and more regarding MT/MCCT. The fact that these are invited (rather than submitted) papers show that the editors recognize the importance and uniqueness of his approach.

Finally, Wong has been invited to publish in several encyclopedias, including The SAGE encyclopedia of theory in psychology, Encyclopedia of quality of life and well-being research, Encyclopedia of Psychotherapy, and Encyclopedia of Positive Psychology. The titles of his entries in these encyclopedias, may not always have the terms MT/MCCT or even Existential Positive Psychology (EPP), but again, when you read the content, it is very clear that he presents his MT/MCCT approach in one way or another (e.g., in his entry on humanistic theories includes a section on MT).

Researchers in Peer-Reviewed Academic Journals. Wong’s publications on MT/MCCT have been cited more than 400 times, according to Google Scholar (you have to add the citations of his publications on MT/MCCT manually as the titles do not always say MT/MCCT but the content is about his approach). Here are some examples of researchers that cite his work as a distinct approach:


 * This article on clinical work (2011) shows how MT/MCCT can be utilized in the context of additions. In fact, the author of this article is the Program Director of Sunshine Coast Health Centre a national Canadian rehabilitation center based on MT/MCCT.
 * This paper on hospice social work (2013) recognizes the impact of MCT as one approach (p. 21-22)
 * This article on palliative care (2006) notes MCC as one approach to counselling patients (p. 288)
 * This paper on cross-cultural clinical psychology (2013) cites MCT as a distinct approach to narrative therapy

This is not to mention articles that recognize MT/MCCT as an approach for HIV-related mental health services, caregivers of individuals with Parkinson’s disease, patients in general hospitals, persons with spinal cord injury, and so on.

Therapeutic and coaching community. Finally, practitioners also view MT/MCCT or Positive Existential Therapy/Coaching as a distinct approach. Recently, Wong was interviewed (link here by the well-known Ben Dean from Mentor Coach as well as Don Laird from Pittsburgh Psychotherapy Associates (link here). Wong shares about MT/MCCT in these interviews.

Wong has also given invited workshops internationally on MT/MCCT. Take, for example, the World Congress of Existential Therapy in London (2015), the BC Psychological Association (2014), in addition to Taiwan, Hong Kong, Japan, Australia, and so on as detailed in his CV.

Finally, here are some practitioners that use MT/MCCT/EPP just from a Google search:
 * Personal Well Being Centre (Yannick Jacob) uses “Positive Existential Coaching” as the foundation for their entire approach to coaching
 * The Hart Center (Patrick Hart) has a whole page dedicated to MCC
 * Life Change Hyponotherapy (Mitch Lawrie) features the “PURE” model of MT/MCCT as one approach
 * Core Counselling (Diane Hancox) cites “MCT” from Wong as part of her training
 * Meaning & Mindfulness (Carol Knox) also features the “PURE” model in a post


 * 3.0 Edit Rather than Delete;

The reason why this article was nominated for deletion was mostly because the nominator did not see the subject as distinct or notable enough. I can see why this seems to be so from the perspective of someone outside the psychological community. I hope that this response shows that MT/MCCT/EPP is recognized as a distinct approach to therapy.

I also recognize that the article in its current form can be improved, from its structure to the neutrality of its writing. I plan to continue working on it (would seriously appreciate specific pointers) and hope others will contribute. Evelyn Mak (talk) 23:37, 15 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Evelyn Mak, nobody is blaming you for your work. Outcomes here at AfD are decided basically on grounds of WP:Notability policy, i.e. whether a topic has been discussed by multiple independent reliable sources. Statements by Wong, including interviews, certainly are not independent. Whether "practitioners" are independent is for people to decide. Chiswick Chap (talk) 07:43, 16 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Delete -- a non-notable concept outside of its use by Wong. Lacks reliable independent sources that discuss the topic directly and in detail. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:53, 18 November 2016 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Science-related deletion discussions. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:00, 18 November 2016 (UTC)


 * Keep. I strongly believe that this article should not be deleted, as Meaning Therapy (MT) represents a distinct approach which is rooted in Logotherapy and Existential Analysis, while extending basic concepts from these approaches to include other relevant ideas and concepts, mainly from cognitive psychology and positive psychology. Furthermore, I do not see the author's writing as promotional as suggested, but rather explanatory. It illuminates this meaning-centered approach as one which is comprehensive enough to bridge humanistic-existential psychology (especially logotherapy) and positive psychology to promote further in-depth exploration and application of meaning in life issues in scientific research as well as clinical settings, in an integrative way. Such integrative view is timely and needed, as demonstrated by the two meaning-centered books I recently co-edited, in which Wong's chapters presenting the MT approach are included and cited by researchers (see Meaning in Positive and Existential Psychology, 2014, and the forthcoming Clinical Perspectives on Meaning: Positive and Existential Psychotherapy). Overall, I think that a decision to delete this page will prevent psychological theorists, researchers, clinical practitioners, and interested public from a valuable source of information regarding an approach which takes into account both theoretical-philosophical insights and rigorous scientific research on meaning in life. 22:25, 21 November 2016 (UTC)Pninit Russo-Netzer (talk)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.