Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mengullo, Randy


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Insufficient notability to warrant inclusion separate from the school. Local newspaper articles are not enough to assert notability, especially when they are not 100% about the teacher. Any mention of this individual should be limited to the school article. yandman 10:41, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Mengullo, Randy

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)


 * Delete - Vanity page, recreated previously deleted article, fails WP:Notability - User234 (talk) 23:37, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Living people-related deletion discussions. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 00:01, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - this user, if memory serves, has created and had deleted similar articles before. The problem then, as now, is lack of notability of the subject. The formula used by the author, as far as I can tell, is: Person Won Lots of Awards, Awards are Mentioned Briefly in Local Press, Person is Notable. Unless somebody can show me that the awards are themselves significant, and/or that the subject's achievements are in some other ways notable (youngest X to do Y, world record in Z event, etc.), then I'm sticking to a "delete" recommendation. I do see that the author is a self-proclaimed "fanatic" about martial arts, and I wish him/her well in that area, but I don't think these little articles about people from the Jack and Jill school and similar are going to have a lot of staying power here. My advice would be to dig into the subject of martial arts and find article subjects that meet WP standards more effectively. In good faith, J L G 4 1 0 4  01:38, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: I see your point. But this subject had also contributed a big part in JJS community for establishing martial arts in a real institution not just a small group but as a regular subject in physical education class for the whole year round for 14 years with a thousand of students every year. I also read the references and the press releases which signify the credibility of the subject. Yes, he maybe training or fucos with the age group and juniors categories but yes he made an impact in his chosen field by capturing many championship titles up to the national level competitions. Correct me if I'm wrong, wikipedia is for everybody and that include kids and it is just formal to include also kids who are achieving at their age not just for adults with world champion title. One thing more, how can you ignore a multi-awarded coach that his references speaks for his credibility? Just like a coin which has two side; a winning team with a dedicated coach behind it. 1 Hoy! Pinoy ako.  00:08, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Question: Do you really think these little articles about people from the Jack and Jill school and similar are going to have a lot of staying power here??? For sure, others don't really think like you do. How can a newcomer develop new article when in the first place you are not helping and even opening the eye about the potential of the article. If Jjskarate won't write about JJS articles and people behind it, will you do the honor? &mdash; MMaAsia  Sambon Hajime!!  05:06, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: The awards are very significant because it build a strong foundation of the existence of the said sport program in school wherein we can evaluate and formulate if it is effective and progressive curriculum both in competition and in self-defense training wherein thousand of students and other people in the community will be benefited of the results and affected if will not supervised accordingly. Added more, it simply signify that the person concern or connected in that institution are not just self-proclaimed martial artist but rather a qualified one and most of all an achiever in his chosen field. jjska®ate 空手| 道®   08:28, 3 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions.   -- • Gene93k (talk) 09:48, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Philippines-related deletion discussions.   -- • Gene93k (talk) 09:50, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Speedy delete recreation of redirected article Randy Mengullo (per Articles_for_deletion/Randy_Mengullo.). JJL (talk) 19:04, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete - Per WP:Note -"Significant coverage". Persona is not encylopedic IMO. Article also violates WP:NPOV. Sephiroth storm (talk) 22:48, 2 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep - Secondary sources are sufficient in form and all very credible. The article just need a little edit or modification to pass the standard, I don't see any reasons to delete the article when some veteran wikipedians can help or extend a helping hand to improve the article. Anyway, we're here to help and maintain good articles. 1 Hoy! Pinoy ako.  01:51, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Strong Keep. Reliable sources about his coaching career can be verified, pass WP:CREATIVE. Notable and respected coach/teacher in the Philippines with online citations and references are credible with lead photo front pageexposure in local newspaper and contributed article in national newspaper/magazine.&mdash; MMaAsia  Sambon Hajime!!  03:03, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Keep - As the creator of this article, I think it's definitely worthy of inclusion in Wikipedia. Local newspapers are all substantials references for his accomplishments as a coach and his contribution to the thousand of student from elementary up to high school is a good criteria of WP:CREATIVE for his endigenous and realistic ideas in developing the physical and moral aspect of his students, particularly in the martial arts world for which they are recognizable. With all of the awards in local up to national level competitions with print media as secondary sources listed, it just seems appropriate. To me, if you're achievements are recognized in the community and thousand of students and parents are believing in your advocacy and journalists are interested in your story, that makes you at least notable enough for Wikipedia. Its not important if you belong in the 3rd world country which is less previlege when it comes to technology compared to highly developed countries but the impact and respect you gain in your community and in many lives is the the true meaning of life. jjska®ate 空手| 道®   03:47, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Question: Those thousand of Jack and Jill students undergone karate training under Randy Mengullo? &mdash; MMaAsia  Sambon Hajime!!  05:20, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: All Jack and Jill students are required to join the karate training under sensei Randy Mengullo beacuse it is part of the school curriculum integrated and graded in P.E. class for the whole year round. For those who have potentials they are trained for competition in many athletic meet headed by Randy Mengullo and he organized this sport program in Jack and Jill School and Castleson High way back in 1994 up to the present. jjska®ate 空手| 道®   05:34, 3 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Keep. The level of his coaching career is a manifestation and definite claim of notability; has employed in the formal and prominent institution with more or less 1,500 students actively participating in the training and has garnered some attention both in local and national paper. The article has potential but really need a good editor to survived from deletion.  空手道®   "avec les mains ou les pieds" 09:03, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - I personally don't think it meets WP:CREATIVE Article does not state recognition by peers, has not garnered a new theory or concept, It would appear with a quick review of the references supplied, that they are in reguards to the school, or the students, Relationships do not confer notability. Would we keep an article for your high school teacher who is 80 years old and had 20,000 students, some of whom won the Nobel Prize? Unless the references can state HIS notability, then I retain my vote for delete. Sephiroth storm (talk) 10:07, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Question: Establishing martial arts training in the real institution and include it as a school curriculum is not a good idea? or I may say it's an old concept? And why the JJS admin continue hiring additional new instructors... does it mean the person concern does not state recognition by peers? I doubt if your elementary school offer a martial arts training for all students. Teaching martials in school is a unique profession and only few has the gift or skills to do it. Just like the Nobel Prize awardees, they are the chosen few.  空手道®   "avec les mains ou les pieds" 01:16, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Response - Then write an article about the school. My school had a teacher who taught Drama and Tai Chi, I'm not writing articles about her :P Look, this isn't personal, its all about the guidelines, as set forth by the Wikipedia community. Sephiroth storm (talk) 06:29, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Response - Finished writing articles about the school: Jack and Jill School and Castleson High.  jjska®ate 空手| 道®   07:34, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment: We will try to apply WP:CREATIVE or creative professionals as a martial artist to the person concern. It states that:
 * The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by their peers or successors.
 * With my personal opinion having been established martial arts program in school for 14 years and the result is positive likewise the number of students are growing and the school is achieving in that field for me he is an important figure or is widely cited by his peers and fellow instuctors/coach.
 * The person is known for originating a significant new concept, theory or technique.
 * Just like Bruce Lee revolutionized martial arts with his Jeet kune do concept to brighten new ideas in traditional fighting. The subject also develop new technique and concept in teaching martial arts to kids which traditionally suited for adults. Which the program for sure suited for their age, interest, physical and mental capabilities. I may personally say that training with adults would be intirely different compare to elementary children. The teaching techniques were probably interesting because some kids may find the training strenuous or boring to those who have background in martial arts. In short the subject revolutionalized traditional martial arts training to an effective training for kids in the large group.&mdash; MMaAsia  Sambon Hajime!!  07:17, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * But Bruce Lee had an impact outside of his own school. There are a great many instructors who teach young children--almost anyone who runs a commercial school does so. You may enjoy his training program but if it has "revolutionized" training methods, who else is using this technique? How is it being taught to other instructors? This is preposterous aggrandizement. JJL (talk) 02:51, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Yes Bruce Lee had a great impact outside of his own school because he is an actor and he even convinced me. There are many great instructor worldwide and anyone who runs a commercial school teach young children too. But are they handling thousand of children every year? Probably, a dozen or two are substantial, or a hundred is great, but a thousand... I doubt it. But it is reality in JJS Karate Dojo. One of a kind.&mdash; MMaAsia  Sambon Hajime!!  07:47, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * We're missing something. I think something's being missed here. This figure may seem "notable" in any number of ways (or wonderful, or awesome, or great, or important, or whatever), but WP has criteria for notability, and I think we should stick with those criteria. There are many, many wondeful coaches, athletes, and so forth around the world. Thousands. Tens of thousands. But until somebody shows me clearly and convincingly that the subject of this article merits inclusion based on Wikipedia criteria, then I'll stand by my delete. This does not mean I cannot be persuaded: I often change my mind in this forum. Plus, I am just one person who happens to have fallen into this discussion. There are many more out there, and I have nothing to contribute but my interpretation of WP policy.  J L G 4 1 0 4  16:49, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Question: Does the subject fails all the criteria? or somehow he pass some of it and just needed little attention/correction about the details and info of the article?  空手道®   "avec les mains ou les pieds" 01:23, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Response - Ok, I understand that more than one contributor to this discussion feels that the subject is notable, but I cannot give credence to somebody's impassioned "feeling" that a subject is notable. We have criteria to deal with. Full disclosure: I AM NOT AN ADMIN. It will be up to an admin to sort through this discussion. In the meantime, here's my accounting:
 * "Significant coverage" means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than trivial but may be less than exclusive.
 * I do not see significant coverage. The most recent article is by the subject himself, and it is a brief piece on why he finds teaching rewarding. Nothing wrong with that. But here, that fails the test.
 * "Reliable" means sources need editorial integrity to allow verifiable evaluation of notability, per the reliable source guideline. Sources may encompass published works in all forms and media. Availability of secondary sources covering the subject is a good test for notability.
 * No real problem here, but I do not believe passing this test alone is sufficient.
 * "Sources," for notability purposes, should be secondary sources, as those provide the most objective evidence of notability. The number and nature of reliable sources needed varies depending on the depth of coverage and quality of the sources. Multiple sources are generally preferred.
 * The sources are all local coverage, akin to a village paper covering its local high school contests. Not sufficient, in my view.
 * "Independent of the subject" excludes works produced by those affiliated with the subject including (but not limited to): self-publicity, advertising, self-published material by the subject, autobiographies, press releases, etc.
 * Per above, the most recent, potentially worthwhile source, was written by the subject himself. Not good enough.
 * "Presumed" means that substantive coverage in reliable sources establishes a presumption, not a guarantee, of notability. Editors may reach a consensus that although a topic meets this criterion, it is not suitable for inclusion. For example, it may violate what Wikipedia is not.
 * Given the above, I fall on the side that says, no guarantee. And in this case, this subject fails the notability test, from my perspective.
 * You may ask, well what do YOU suggest, Mr. JLG4104? Fair enough. If this person is indeed a really important, beloved figure in his locality, then sooner or later he should become the subject of more coverage by a broader range of larger-scale journalistic and other kinds of sources. When that happens, he may become notable here, as far as I can see. J L G 4 1 0 4  03:11, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - Thank you for that info. Please also try to consider that Karatedo as a sport is not in the priority list of many large-scale journalistic/sports writers compared to boxing, basketball, football and etc., the organization itself is also having a hard time getting sponsors because we are not a multi-dollar event/tournament. What I'm trying to emphasis is, it is very hard nowadays for a karateka to established names compared to other athletes like in boxing and tennis players which is a good source in the article of sports page. Seldom that a karateka will be the top story of the newspaper or other media, lucky if you will be included as a box news. Hope you get my point in dealing with media coverage which personally I find it disavantage to many martial artists.   空手道®   "avec les mains ou les pieds" 03:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * I do see and respect what you are saying. I see the passion coming through, and I respect that. Part of the problem is that WP, as I see it, is not really a place for pinning up pictures (in a sense) of people who happen to be popular or loved-- it is not a popularity contest. But this does not have to be the end of the story-- you could take it up as a discussion at WP:Notability. I hope my comments have helped at least a little bit. J L G 4 1 0 4  11:40, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Comment - Just to clear things up the Visayan Daily Star and Sunstar are members of PPI (Philippine Press Institute), the national association of Philippine Newspaper. Both are respected newspapers in the Philippines with more than 20 years of existence and garnered many journalism awards in the country and not akin to a village paper covering its local high school contests. jjska®ate  空手| 道®   04:40, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment - As I see it, martial arts instructor in the Philippines don't pay much or prankly speaking they struggled to make a living except of course if you have a permanent job (rather than just teaching martial arts) or may hired in the institution (chances are very low, ratio 2:50) for a coach/trainer position. I may say the subject of this article is not just interesting but also important for the reason that he make a great contribution not just in school but among children of all walks of life in developing confidence and discipline matching with his accomplishments in many tournament which make him more convincing. I'm not a veteran wikipedian but somehow I feel his contribution is very significant. 1 Hoy! Pinoy ako.  01:54, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Response - Unfortunately, the article does not state this as a claim of Notability, again as I pointed out earlier, most of the references have little to do with him, only mentioning his name. Sephiroth storm (talk) 06:29, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Delete Per above, enough said. Tcrow777Talk 10:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Question - His info box calls him Sir Randy, has this individual been Knighted? Sephiroth storm (talk) 21:46, 4 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Response - In the Philippines we call or address male teacher as Sir and Maam, Ms and Madam to female teacher. We're not talking about knighted or position/rank in the society but it the respect we offer to our teacher as our 2nd parent in school. jjska®ate 空手| 道®   23:42, 4 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Comment: - Additional info/guidelines about Wiki:Matialartsproject:
 * Pictures may be relevant, and always help liven up an article. Pictures may include:


 * organization logos (check copyright and trademark issues first!)
 * uniforms
 * training equipment
 * important people
 * Consider adding a small and short video of a characteristic drill or exercise. See the m:Video Policy first.


 * I added pictures and videos regarding this matter. picture 1, picture 2, picture 3, video 1, video 2, video 3&mdash; MMaAsia  Sambon Hajime!!  02:38, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * Delete. This has gone too long enough. Every teacher in every school does what he does. His mentions in newspapers are trivial at best. The newspapers he is mentioned are local at best. PPI? As far as I'm concerned, all newspapers of regional importance belongs to the PPI? Holla back at me if he Philippine Daily Inquirer and the Philippine Star has extensive and multiple coverages of him. The fact that martial arts aren't covered a lot by mainstream media means this won't make it. – Howard  the   Duck  06:03, 5 February 2009 (UTC)
 * Question:
 * You're trying to say that those newspapers are not credible? and less importance compared to those mainstream media?
 * WikiProject_Martial_arts General points stated that: A single local newspaper article is probably not enough to assert notability, but national mention with some details or multiple local sources that "make a case" for notability. Does he pass this guideline?
 * Does every teacher in school who wrote an article about his job captured the attention of many or I may say pass the standard of Philippine Daily Inquirer as you emphasis? Will somebody does and his article was published nationwide. 1  Hoy! Pinoy ako.  07:23, 5 February 2009 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.