Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Menua Hovhannisyan


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus.  —&#8288;Scotty Wong &#8288;— 18:11, 16 June 2021 (UTC)

Menua Hovhannisyan

 * – ( View AfD View log )

There are sources related to the receiving of the Hero of Artsakh award but that's it. There are no more sources and only receiving this or similar awards wouldn't make a person notable. Nanahuatl (talk) 16:00, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 18:21, 29 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Armenia-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 18:21, 29 May 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete lacks SIGCOV in multiple RS to meet WP:GNG. Mztourist (talk) 03:00, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep. Hero of Artsakh is the highest military award of the country, which makes any person who received this award notable. I will add more sources about his bio to the article, if needed. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 09:28, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep: receiving the highest military award for any country is enough reason to be notable. By comparison would you say that someone who received a Victoria Cross is unnotable? the related war was pretty recent too, that kind of explains the relative scarcity of sources. - Kevo3 2 7 (talk) 21:57, 30 May 2021 (UTC)
 * The same thing has happened in this discussion and I am sure it always happens, ethnic defending... Just because someone receives an awards, doesn't mean that person is notable. Therefore, topics which pass an SNG are presumed to merit an article, though articles which pass an SNG or the GNG may still be deleted or merged into another article, especially if adequate sourcing or significant coverage cannot be found, or if the topic is not suitable for an encyclopedia.--Nanahuatl (talk) 21:58, 31 May 2021 (UTC)
 * Gunay Aliyeva has nothing to do with this article. She did not receive any highest title. I updated the article and added links about the biography. Hero of Artsakh is the highest title. To understand this, it is enough to look at the list of recipients (Robert Kocharyan, Serzh Sargsyan, Arkady Ter-Tadevosyan, Monte Melkonian etc.). As for reliable sources. About Armenian/Artsakhi heroes write Armenian/Artsakhi sources, and this is a normal practice for Wikipedia. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 07:42, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * , I only take that as an example of the ethnic nationalism in Wikipedia. For some reason, some nations defend articles from those nations as if they defend their countries. Relax :) The other recipients are irrelevant per OTHERCONTENT. If there are sources to prove its notability, be my guest to show :) All the sources are shown are related either about his death or the decoration, that's all. Nanahuatl (talk) 07:05, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
 * I have added links related to his bio, not just the award. Are you hinting that independent sources should be non-Armenian? Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 09:15, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Nop, haven't said that, have I? Bios are created and published right after the death, therefore, it doesn't meet WP:SUSTAINED. Nanahuatl (talk) 19:27, 5 June 2021 (UTC)


 * WP:SOLDIER, which formerly asserted a presumption of notability for those achieving the highest award, was deprecated earlier this year as "is no longer considered by WikiProject Military history to be useful guidance on the notability of military people, and its use in deletion discussions is actively discouraged by the project". If there is no substantial coverage in independent RS I support deletion or redirect to Hero of Artsakh. (t &#183; c)  buidhe  18:41, 4 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Good point . Also we have to mention that "subject-specific notability guidelines generally include verifiable criteria about a topic which show that appropriate sourcing likely exists for that topic. Therefore, topics which pass an SNG are presumed to merit an article, though articles which pass an SNG or the GNG may still be deleted or merged into another article, especially if adequate sourcing or significant coverage cannot be found, or if the topic is not suitable for an encyclopedia" as I mentioned above. Nanahuatl (talk) 07:07, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
 * there is still from Notability (people) (Additional criteria) "People are likely to be notable if they meet any of the following standards." no. 1 of WP:ANYBIO - "The person has received a well-known and significant award or honor, or has been nominated for such an award several times.", so if Hero of Artsakh is deemed "well-known and significant"..... Coolabahapple (talk) 11:39, 5 June 2021 (UTC)
 * "Likely"... Not "certainly"... Nanahuatl (talk) 19:25, 5 June 2021 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 18:02, 6 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment. It certainly appears to meet WP:ANYBIO #1. However, I'm not convinced that the highest award of a small, self-proclaimed state of 150,000 people that has already awarded 24 of its "highest awards" in the thirty years of its existence (compared with, say, a major nation like the UK, which has awarded only 15 Victoria Crosses in 75 years!) can be considered to meet the criteria. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:44, 10 June 2021 (UTC)
 * This small country in the entire history of its existence has suffered three large-scale wars, border skirmishes, massacres, territorial changes and much more. I think it would be inappropriate to underestimate the title of "Hero of Artsakh" and its significance. In any case, the decision about this article will automatically affect other recipients of this award as well. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 13:44, 11 June 2021 (UTC)
 * The decision would not automatically affect other articles. Someone would have to go article by article and nominate each one for deletion, and I'm very certain (and would !vote keep in those instances) that multiple would be kept. — Alalch Emis (talk) 21:37, 15 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Keep, I would consider being awarded the Hero of Artsakh award sufficient to pass WP:ANYBIO, though a lot of them have been awarded Artsakh has been engaged in quite a lot of fighting over the years. Devonian Wombat (talk) 03:31, 14 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Delete because Hero of Artsakh is not a relevant award under WP:ANYBIO #1. This is because Artsakh is an internationally unrecognized polity of cca 150k people. When I say internationally unrecognized, I mean 0 countries have recognized it, including Armenia that in many ways administers it, which is reflected in the Artsakh article: Artsakh is heavily dependent on Armenia, and in many ways de facto functions and is administered as part of Armenia. However, Armenia is hesitant to officially recognise Artsakh. Since Artsakh is such a small polity, and not a very independent one, and in agreement with Necrothesp's and Devonian Wombat's observations of the reward seeming a bit disproportionately prolific when compared to more populous/established nations (Artsakh has 0.2% population of UK, and UK has also been in wars in the same time frame), I would say that the reward is not a well-known and significant honor of the required order in this context. It is reasonably significant (perhaps not quite sufficiently), but certainly not sufficiently well-known. Apart from this, I don't see other grounds for notability, such as WP:GNG. — Alalch Emis (talk) 21:14, 15 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Artsakh is a de facto independent country with its own constitution, laws, economy and army. I see no reason to belittle the title of Hero of Artsakh. The highest award, the Hero of Artsakh, in itself speaks of significance. This state award is widely known in Artsakh, Armenia and in the Armenian Diaspora. I also misunderstand your logic. If you compare any X state with the UK, then any award will look "not well-known" and "insignificant". The same applies to the number of people living in Artsakh, which has nothing to do with the topic at all. Sincerely, Գարիկ Ավագյան (talk) 09:27, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
 * De facto is contrasted with de jure. In contrast to the de jure status of the territory of Artsakh as Azerbaijani territory, de facto Artsakh is not Azerbaijani because it's outside of Azerbaijan's territorial control, but that doesn't automatically mean Artsakh is independent. According to the abovementioned article, facts are such that Artsakh is heavily dependent on Armenia. One can not be both dependent on someone and independent. Artsakh is nominally independent, but de facto dependent (on Armenia). To me, this reduces the significance of the award. I understand that the award is well-known in Armenia, and in the diaspora, but many other awards that we would be considering under ANYBIO #1 have a vastly wider recognition. It's just my opinion after all. It's hard to pin this standard down, it's set very generally, and simply boils down to consensus on a case-by-case basis. Kind regards. — Alalch Emis (talk) 17:09, 16 June 2021 (UTC)


 * Delete . It's not clear that the award itself is notable. Fails WP:SIGCOV.4meter4 (talk) 02:42, 16 June 2021 (UTC)
 * Keep Hero of Artsakh itself is considered very notable in Artsakh and Armenia, and is the highest military award as others pointed out. I think the article should remain. ZaniGiovanni (talk) 10:56, 16 June 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.