Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Merry Christmas From The Morse Family (album)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.  

The result of the debate was Keep. enochlau (talk) 23:18, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Merry Christmas From The Morse Family (album)
Vanity, non-notable Crid 20:29, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Delete per nom. Based on the title of the article, I was expecting a whole group of "Merry Christmas From the Morse Family" articles, and perhaps a disambiguation page.  Sadly, my dreams were shattered.  --MisterHand 20:52, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep I'm changing my vote now that more information has been given about Neal Morse's notability. However, I think the article needs to be expanded a bit to provide context on why it is encylopedic.  As it reads right now, it looks like a CD some guy just recorded in his garage, and thought it would be funny to put on Wikipedia.  Also, the article should be renamed to "Merry Christmas From the Morse Family".  The "(album)" part isn't necessary as there's no disambiguation going on. -- MisterHand 14:29, 6 January 2006 (UTC)
 * I've renamed it. --kingboyk 12:39, 7 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Hi, thanks for your comments, I take them onboard entirely; I will try to make the changes you recommend - no real time at present. I should get round to it soon though. :: Kevinalewis : please contact me on my Talk Page : 15:06, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete although MisterHand's comment has brightened my evening :-) Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px| ]] AfD? 21:19, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * DeleteWP:NOT Advertising.Obina 22:40, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * With all due respect, I don't understand how this article is "advertising" the album. There is no information on how to get it, no price listed, and not even an external link to Morse's website or the website of his record label.  I'm looking at it as objectively as I can, and all I see is an explanation of how this album came to be and how it differs from the rest of the artist's considerable body of work.  If you can convince me that it's advertising, certainly I'd be willing to rework the article so that it was much more NPOV.   -- Mitchell k dwyer 10:42, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Delete Non-notable, as per WP:Music. -- (aeropagitica) 22:58, 4 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep Maybe the individual album could be considered not-notable - the artist is however. The inclusion of this helps to keep the encyclopedic record of his canon of work. If we keep removing material such as this, surely we damage peoples ability to understand work of such a musician. Admittedly not of the same level but should we remove, articles about Electronic Sounds by George Harrison, - it is part of his corpus of work and should be reasonably described to suit the stature of the artist. :: Kevinalewis : please contact me on my Talk Page : 09:53, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. The artist is clearly notable.  I understand that perhaps this one album, in the grand scheme of rock and roll, may not be especially notable, but individual albums by notable artists have their own articles all over Wikipedia, whether especially notable or not.  It seems to me that if this album, one of twenty-seven (or so) the musician has released, is not notable enough to warrant the article, nearly all articles on his albums and nearly all articles on anyone else's albums would need to be nominated for deletion.  -- Mitchell k dwyer 10:36, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Follow-up: aeropagitica above cites WP:Music in calling this album non-notable, but there is no criteria listed there for individual works by notable musicians.  Perhaps this needs to be discussed.  Neal Morse and his former band, Spock's Beard, are the most written-about progressive rock musicians in America and as artists, easily satisfy the notability criteria listed at WP:Music.  -- Mitchell k dwyer 11:00, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Keep. Agree with both Kevinalewis and Mitchell k dwyer. Snader 11:25, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. Official album (B000071JTV) by a popular progressive rock musician. Chiok 16:31, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep. The consensus on past AfD decisions is very clear: albums by notable artists should stay. Unless someone shows that this guideline harms Wikipedia in some way, I'll stick to it. See Articles for deletion/Precedents. JoaoRicardotalk 17:33, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Keep I notice that the artist isn't up for AFD and therefore nor should his album be. Sure the page reads a bit 'promo' but it's a good start, and I found it quite interesting even though I knew nothing about the guy. --kingboyk 19:39, 5 January 2006 (UTC)


 * Here is my problem with this album: Allmusic doesn't list it. It does list Morse, as a member of Spock's Beard, but Spock's Beard  themselves are clearly no supergroup, having no chart hits or awards to their name.  So to allow this unlisted album because it is by someone who was once a member of a slightly famous band seems like a bit of a stretch.  Perhaps someone could help out and show me some actual data showing that this album is important? - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px|  ]] AfD? 20:03, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Allmusicguide is really out of date on Neal Morse. It doesn't even mention Transatlantic.  It doesn't list God Won't Give Up and Lead Me Lord either.  The bio is circa 1999.  I'm sending them some updated information. Chiok 21:03, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * *Chart hits are no way to measure the notability of a band or a musician. Frank Zappa never had a hit, and as far as I know, never won a mainstream award.  Within the world of progressive rock, there isn't a soul who doesn't know Neal's name.  Googling "merry christmas from the morse family" returns over 11,000 hits, including just about every website and publication that deals with this genre of music.  Now, I'm not saying that Google should be the measuring stick; I'm merely saying that, considering the genre and this musician's importance within it, there's no denying the notability of the artist.  As for the notability of the album, I've already conceded that it's questionable; however, as JoaoRicardo points out above, albums by notable musicians have been determined important enough to keep.   Mitchell k dwyer 21:11, 5 January 2006 (UTC)
 * Frank Zappa charted a few times, with the tune his daughter sang on and a few other albums from the early 70's, and won a Grammy or two along the way. More to the point he left behind hundreds of thousands of enthusiasts, on several continents, many of us fanatic, who can describe his works and talent at length by citing references in the most popular media (Time Magazine, the New York Times, etc). This individual has no such body of work or impression of impact.  Even if he were an "important" contributor to the art form, the form itself has shrunken to a few dozen listeners and given up the ghost (hence the Christmas album with the family).  Mostly, this entry is embarrassing: There's a sense that if he can't maintain a listing in Wikipedia, all those hideous rehearsals were for naught.  Wikipedia ought not record such things.  Charlane's Sugar Shack is the premier ice cream parlor in the town of Creosote, Texas; It is not therefore notable. Delete. Crid 04:25, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * I am puzzled by the statement "Within the world of progressive rock, there isn't a soul who doesn't know Neal's name". I am a huge fan of prog rock, one of the last surviving Genesis fans in captivity and I have never heard of him. But my question was not about Neal, but about this album.  It looks almost like a private pressing.  Is it?  - Just zis Guy, you know? [T]/[C] [[Image:Flag of the United Kingdom.svg|25px|  ]] AfD? 12:18, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The "isn't a soul" phrase isn't defendable, that this is a major album isn't defendable, that it sold well isn't defendable, that we are trying to sell this is also not defendable (surely you aren't claiming we are that naive). What is at stake here is the principle of Album articles for notable artists. Within Progressive music Spock's Beard, Transatlantic and Neal himself have become notable, if only in the regalvinising of support for modern progressive music. It is possible that your connections with progressive music are dated back in the 1970s and 80s (you quoted Gensis, of whom I am also a fan). Which is fine but this is a vibrant and growing part of the music world today. One of the interesting side developments has been the growth of Christian Prog (Cprog). Not major, but definitely noteworthy and notable. Ok, so if the artists are notable there should be nothing to cause the album articles to fail the following precidence test. See Articles for deletion/Precedents or are you trying to challenge this. If so we can look forward to many an article deletion for minor releases. :: Kevinalewis : please contact me on my Talk Page : 12:39, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * This is silly. Which do you hate Crid, the article, the album, Neal Morse, or modern progressive rock?  Sure, the article could use work.   I've made it a little more formal today, but it still could do with some tweaking.  Yes, the Christmas album is a minor one of Neal Morse's CDs, but it sounds like from the discussion that minor albums by notable musicians are okay.  Neal Morse albums do well.  They are well received by reviewers, he gets some radio play on progressive radio stations and is starting to be played on some Christian radio stations.  I don't have the numbers, but I think the TransAtlantic and latter Spock's Beard albums were selling hundreds of thousands of CDs--not a few dozen.  His Christian solo albums are selling less than that, but are still doing pretty good.  Modern prog rock isn't what it was in the 70s, but there are a few bands that are doing well.  They are not top 40 bands, but do we really want to delete stuff from every artist/genre that isn't in the top 40.  Yes, Neal Morse is a genre artist, but so what? Chiok 05:24, 6 January 2006 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.