Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mexicans of European descent


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. A discussion about the rename can be held via a WP:RM. TonyBallioni (talk) 18:20, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Mexicans of European descent
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This article seems to be original research since it lacks sources directly addressing the subject matter. There are sources on Mexicans who self-identify as White in national censuses but non on the strict concept of "Mexicans of European descent" (i.e. the vast majority of Mexicans) for which Original Research is required in order to define who does and does not fit in this category. An article for "White Mexicans" could be created without violating WP Policy yet this one cannot.Php2000 (talk) 18:02, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2020 July 14.  —cyberbot I   Talk to my owner :Online 18:20, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Mexico-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 18:26, 14 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Europe-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 18:26, 14 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 18:26, 14 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ethnic groups-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 19:32, 14 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Delete This article violates many of our policies. We cover ethnic groups not racial groups, so merely biologically having an ancestry is not the key. Otherwise people would always refer to George Zimmerman as black, when in fact some falsely call him white and some correctly call him Hispanic.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:34, 14 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep As the editor Php2000 admits at the start of this report, plenty of sources regarding "White Mexicans" exist within the article, thus, the problem in reality is not that the article's subject is original research but that he considers the title of the article to be vague. Therefore I think renaming the article would be more convenient than deleting an article that features massive amounts of well sourced and researched information. It is important to also note that in the talk page for the article Mexicans of European descent the editor Php2000 is asking for a redirect/renaming, not a deletion. Pob3qu3 (talk) 21:57, 14 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Comment:Pob3qu3 I agree that renaming the article White Mexicans would solve 80% of the issue but it would also require a degree of redrafting to purge it of OR. Php2000 (talk) 12:53, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Reply So, if you agree that renaming is the main issue here and that the big majority of the article is correct (with no mention that you recognize that "the term White mexican is backed by sources thus you actually can't argue against it's inclusion" ) then this is not the right place to deal with this issue. The right place would be the talk page of the article in question (or the talk page of the article "Mexicans" which is te one that is seeing most of this discussion). Pob3qu3 (talk) 23:36, 15 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep, I agree with Pob3qu3, instead of just deleting the article it's more prudent to discuss the changes needed on the talk page. Garlicolive (talk) 17:13, 18 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep, but rename to White Mexicans or Race in Mexico. At least some parts of this page seem to be written as a racialist essay focused on the differences in "skin color". For example, " Mexicans with lighter skin tones (lighter than "F") have higher levels of academic achievement... This time 11% of Mexicans were reported to have "dark skin tones (A-E)" 59% to have "medium skin tones (F-G)" and 29% to have "light skin tones (H-K), etc. I am not sure this can be fixed given that the entire page is about "Whites" versus "Non-whites". The opinion by John Pack Lambert above is not unreasonable. On the other hand, if we have page African Americans and White Americans, why can't we have White Mexicans, i.e. White people in the state of Mexico? My very best wishes (talk) 17:15, 18 July 2020 (UTC)
 * comment I agree with the sentiment, and probably the course of action, but the problem here is the way race is considered in Mexico. Mexicans do not consider themselves to be divided into discrete colour based groups, they believe there are indigenous people and everybody else. However, they do use the term 'blanco' based on appearance, and the society is extremely biased in favour of these people, whatever their ancestry. So we have an article that probably needs to exist in some form, but which is difficult to source as Mexican sources rarely consider Mexican Whites as an ethnic group. There might be a case for merging this page into a new Race in Mexico page. Boynamedsue (talk) 08:02, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * I see. Some tables on the page are using a classification to three different racial groups. But it also tells "Also included in the survey was a color palette (the same as the one used in the PERLA project: composed of 11 different tones with "A" being the darkest and "K" being the lightest) so a person could chose what color the skin of his/her face was.". This is kind of unusual, although, yes, the surveys of race/ethnicity are conducted also in the USA, etc. My very best wishes (talk) 16:50, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment Although I never considered it as something to think much about, I agree that the article in varios sections is written in a "Whites vs non-Whites" style as My very best wishes has pointed out. My suggestion would be to rename the article as "White Mexicans" and reduce/trim these sections of the article (which would now focus on said ethnic group history and distribution etc.) and move them to a new article such as the propossed "Race in Mexico" if necessary. Pob3qu3 (talk) 23:38, 20 July 2020 (UTC)


 * Keep and Rename. This article is effectively already "White Mexicans", as Mexicans of European Descent would include many people who have one European parent and one Mexican parent of any ethnicity, these people are clearly not included in the article. Sources all talk about "White" or "fair-skinned" Mexicans. There are some troubling outdated sources in there, which probably need excising. A complete rewrite of some sections is necessary for OR.Boynamedsue (talk) 06:10, 19 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Per a comment abouve, I now feel a Race in Mexico article might be better than White Mexicans. --Boynamedsue (talk) 06:28, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
 * Comment I consider appropiate to point out that the concept of "White Mexican" as an ethnic group is very prevalent within Mexican society, just like "Indigenous Mexican" or "Afromexican" are (I just added another source to the article about it). I say this because I've seen that in your responses you have stated things along the lines of "its rare for Mexican sources to think of White Mexicans as an ethnic group" or "besides indigenous peoples, Mexicans perceive themselves as being all of the same ethnicity", which I have the impression, is a similar posture to the one shown by the editor Php2000 in the talk page of the article "Mexicans" where he says that "the label White Mexican is an anglocentric misconstruct that does not exist in México" when in fact, there are sources on which investigators have stated that, despite Mexico's government promoting an unionist ethnic discourse for nearly 100 years many Mexicans still consider themselves to be of different races/ethnicies. I hope this can make you reconsider your posture, but no personal grudges if you don't. Pob3qu3 (talk) 22:20, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
 * response I don't disagree that skin colour is an important factor in Mexico, but Mexican Whites don't really form an ethnic group in as much as the academic sources don't support it. I would say there is a mismatch between conceptions of ethnicity, if you look at google scholar results for "mexicanos blancos" you get nearly nothing of any use for an article called "White Mexicans", although they clearly exist and to a degree have group-consciousness. Boynamedsue (talk) 23:11, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
 * reply I believe this is an issue of perspective that can be sorted out easily if we focus on what we agree (which is most things) instead of on what we disagree, as both of us agree that White Mexicans exists, that there's group-consciousness in Mexican society about them (which has become extremely notorious in the last two years) and that reliable sources about them exist. The only point of discussion between us is that there isn't much information about them, but this is ultimately explained because its a new term, but even then, there's official sources that acknowledge them, academic investigations about them (some from before the 2010s, such as the American Sociological Association investigation that is included in the article's lead section), published literature (much of it already featured in the article) and recently very much press coverage. I think that the time most of those reliable sources have been around shouldn't influence the inclusion of the topic they primarily addres. Specially because they're not really that recent, most are 3 to 4 years old. Pob3qu3 (talk) 00:52, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
 * reply The ASA article is the type of thing that worries me, it specifically states that while colour discrimination exists in Mexico, the group categorisations the study uses to identify it (one of which is "blanco o güero") are not socially recognised. That means it can't be used as a source to prove the existence of an ethnic group called "White Mexicans". This is a really hard article to write without OR. Boynamedsue (talk) 06:54, 22 July 2020 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.