Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michał Lauer


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete.  Sandstein  10:08, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Michał Lauer

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Junior officer awarded a couple of medals. No real reason for notability. Contested prod. While some may think he qualifies for an article due to being awarded the Virtuti Militari, note that it comes in five grades; the Silver Cross, which he received, is the lowest grade, and tens of thousands have been awarded. It's hardly in the same league as the Victoria Cross or Medal of Honor. It's probably actually in the same league as the Military Cross or Silver Star, if that. Just because the highest grade of an honour is the highest award a country can give does not mean that every grade of the same honour is notable. The Cross of Valour is even commoner - well over 100,000 have been awarded. Recipients of neither qualify for articles. This article seems to have been written by one of his relatives. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 13:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions. Necrothesp (talk) 13:48, 17 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Delete as failing WP:SOLDIER, WP:GNG, et al. I was originally going to write up a keep per his Virtuti Militari but your comment preempted that; does not qualify for WP:SOLDIER (1).  14:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Weak keep. We are keeping all recipients of the Iron Cross (I tried to AfD few of them before), so I don't see what's different here. Ping User:Halibutt, who worked on this article. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 00:58, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Surely we're not? We're keeping all recipients of the Knight's Cross (although we probably shouldn't, given over 7,000 were awarded in a single war), but not the Iron Cross (millions of which were awarded). Rather a different thing. Can you point me towards the AfDs you mention? We certainly do not keep all recipients of the Military Cross or Silver Star, or even the Distinguished Service Order or Distinguished Service Cross (United States) (which are higher than anything Lauer received), many of whom have been deleted at AfD. I fail to see why Poland (or Germany) should be a special case, when much more highly-decorated Commonwealth and American servicemen have been deleted. If they have been kept, it clearly shows a fundamental misunderstanding of how multi-grade honours work. I have previously also heard it argued that all recipients of every grade of the Légion d'honneur should be kept, as it is the "highest honour France can award" and thus passes WP:SOLDIER. This is of course patent rubbish. The higher grades do; the lower grades do not. If we decide that all grades do, then it clearly discriminates against countries which award multiple different honours instead of different grades of the same honour (a recipient of the Military Cross or Silver Star isn't notable because they're standalone awards, but a recipient of the Iron Cross 1st Class or Silver Cross of the Virtuti Militari, awarded for approximately the same level of gallantry, is notable because it's a grade of a multi-grade honour whose higher grades constitute the highest honour of that country - that makes no logical sense whatsoever and is clearly against the spirit, and also really the letter, of WP:SOLDIER). -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:29, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 15:22, 18 December 2014 (UTC)


 * Comment. I'm really not sure. WP:SOLDIER's point no. 1 is apparently a very crude tool, and especially so because of the "only the highest military grade of such awards qualifies" remark. The problem is, various high-level awards are hardly comparable: you say DSO and DSC are higher than the highest Polish military decoration, I wouldn't agree to that. But even when sticking to highest decorations mentioned in WP:SOLDIER (think Legion of Honour), on one hand this means that roughly 2900 people who received the Grand Cross of the Legion of Honour are eligible - people of all grades and classes mind you. Now let's compare it to the total number of people who received the highest class of Virtuti Militari. 2 people for 1806-1815 period (Poniatowski and Davout), zero for 1815-1831 period (and only one 2nd class - to Jan Skrzynecki), six in the 1914-1939 period (Piłsudski, Ferdinand Foch, Ferdinand I of Romania, Albert I of Belgium, Alexander I of Yugoslavia and Victorio Emanuele III), and finally 13 people for the 1939-1945 period (none awarded by Poland, all 13 by the commies - to various Soviet and Soviet-aligned officers (check the list here). You get my point? The highest tier of the Virtuti Militari was awarded only 21 times throughout history - and only to highest-ranking officials who are already encyclopedic even without it. And in the case of VM the problem is that most classes are tied to recipient's rank.
 * Having said that, I'm not sure this particular recipient is notable enough, I could hardly find any sources mentioning his military career at all. But I would consider deleting the article based on scarcity of sources, not on the rank of the medal he received.  // Halibutt 20:52, 18 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Note that I didn't say anywhere that only the highest grade is inherently notable; I said the higher grades. Neither did I say anywhere that the DSO and DSC are superior to the Virtuti Militari. I said they were superior to the Silver Cross of the Virtuti Militari - far rarer awards from countries that have been at war far more than Poland has. But I think we should assume that an award of at least the Golden Cross is necessary for inherent notability. From 1920, only 478 of these (and 85 higher grades) have been awarded. Although we need to be careful for earlier awards, as 1,794 Golden Crosses were awarded for the 1830/31 November Uprising alone. It is probably therefore reasonable to assume that at least a Knight's Cross is required for inherent notability in the 19th century. And remember we're only talking inherent notability here of course - recipients of lower awards can of course still be notable on a case-by-case basis (this gentleman, however, appears to be notable only for his award). But over 10,000 Silver Crosses were awarded for the Second World War alone (about the same number of Military Crosses awarded throughout the British Empire, although the MC was of course only awarded to junior officers and warrant officers for actions on land - however, given the comparative size of the Polish and Empire forces it's probably a reasonable equation). Compared to 181 Victoria Crosses for the entire British Empire, with far larger forces committed in far more campaigns than the Poles. I think that amply demonstrates that we can't possibly say that receipt of the Virtuti Militari makes one inherently notable. About 11,000 Poles inherently notable for gallantry in WWII against 200 odd British Empire people (when we factor in the George Cross and Empire Gallantry Medal as well)? Er, no! How is that in any way logical? -- Necrothesp (talk) 09:39, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, NorthAmerica1000 14:21, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Weak delete without prejudice against recreation. There is simply not enough information to judge the notability. Yes, he was awarded. But for what? No sources with in-depth coverage. -M.Altenmann >t 18:51, 24 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.