Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael "Micl Snr" Norman


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Seems like the sources proffered here have not convinced the participants that the topic is notable. Also, to answer a question about what can be done to save an article that has been challenged on notability grounds, either a) find WP:SIGCOV sources or b) wait until a topic receives them (which may be never). You might get more precise instructions at WP:HD Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 18:40, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Michael "Micl Snr" Norman

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Fails WP:BIO. Biography seems based on a lot of thin air and very little actual, verifiable achievements. Basically, this filmmaker has finished one short movie (13 minutes) which won some "awards". Both the Best Short Awards and the Hollywood New Directors Award have websites which are big on "subscribe now" and very short on lists of actual winners, probably because there are many categories, and each category may have multiple (many?) winners. "Benefits of Participating: Promotional Laurels – give your film opening and graphics that wow factor! "

The other claims in the article are unverifiable: " hosted the first UK Trinity exams in SA history."? "producing live streams for artist such as Idris Elba"? The first is tagged as "citation needed", the second is sourced to user-supplied IMDb. Films like "Nabbed in the south" from 2017 have not received any attention at all and seem to be unreleased. Their new movie "Rogue Taze: Dark Moon" has failed to attract any attention. This looks like a puffed-up promo WP:BIO1E, a film producer who basically bought some awards for one short movie, and then used these awards to get some short-lived attention in some SA media. Which shouldn't be enough to get an enwiki article as well. Fram (talk) 14:15, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete the Nom has nailed it. This is clearly a case of WP:TOOSOON; Dom from Paris (talk) 14:50, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. Dom from Paris (talk) 14:51, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of South Africa-related deletion discussions. Dom from Paris (talk) 14:51, 28 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Delete - I concur with Fram's analysis of the awards. The Wikipedia article appears to be more PR effort as this article was paid for. -- Whpq (talk) 14:58, 28 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Keep. Thank you for the robust discussion regarding my article! To address Whpg point regarding payment, the subject of the article is indeed a client of mine, however i don't feel that this necessarily means the content isn't eligible for inclusion on its own.

To the elements which are unverifiable:
 * "hosted the first UK Trinity exams in SA history." - I can't find an independent source for this item, particularly the 'first in SA' aspect, and so have remove this.
 * "producing live streams for artist such as Idris Elba" - the IMDb page for this event does show photographic proof of Idris Elba and Micl Snr along with the event details. Would like to supply further verification on this item - what would be more acceptable in this item?
 * On the WP:BIO1E and WP:BIO issue, not convinced that the content produced by the subject should be regarded as insufficient because they are short films, the Short_film is a legitimate art form.
 * Regarding the 'failed to attract any attention', the new movie is not yet released, it is still in post-production, which would explain this.

I would like to bring the article up to standard to allow it to remain on Wikipedia rather than simply be deleted, I really do hope this is possible.

Ash Glover (talk) 15:23, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

I just wanted to add the following information regarding the news coverage of the subject, I feel that it is good coverage from multiple good and reputable news sources in South Africa which indicate that the subject is a public figure:

Ash Glover (talk) 18:12, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * The Expresso Show is aired on one of the largest television channels in South Africa, SABC_3
 * Other coverage on SABC_News in print: sabcnews.com
 * Independent_Online_(South_Africa) is a major and reputable news outlet which ran an article on the subject iol.co.za
 * Metro_FM airs to an audience of millions daily, and the subject appeared on the most biggest show on the station. Audio clip on Metro FM's iono.fm channel. While this youtube video is on the subject's company channel, the video shows well-known radio personality DJ_Fresh_(South_African_DJ).
 * Coverage on CNBC_Africa, another reputable news source: cnbcafrica.com
 * The subject's short film was aired at the very prestigious Burbank_International_Film_Festival in 2018, and was a Semi Finalist in the competition. page 42
 * Interview on Eyewitness_News_(South_Africa), another large and reputable news outlet in South Africa
 * Coverage on the film industry news website Screen Africa
 * Further coverage of the subject was found at worldfilmgeek.com
 * Delete as per nominator.  Owlf  19:41, 28 May 2019 (UTC)
 * Delete Subject fails GNG. Only produced trivial short films. Fact that subject worked behind the scenes on Idris Elba's live steam project doesn't make subject notable. HM Wilburt (talk) 16:49, 29 May 2019 (UTC)


 * Comment Just to add to this, I don't wish to be disruptive, but would like to add some further motivation to keep the page, perhaps in a drastically edited-down state, perhaps even a Stub. I think the subject warrants an article, the nature of his work is not WP:BIO1E, here is more coverage on a previous film from 2017, Next Assignment: Code Blue - i overlooked adding this to the page, but would like to do so. Here is some of the coverage of that film and Micl Snr from that time:


 * TimesLive
 * Channel24, another major news source in SA
 * DailySun

I did already make the point that the media coverage is not on low quality sources, the South_African_Broadcasting_Corporation, CNBC_Africa, The_Times_(South_Africa), Independent_Online_(South_Africa), Metro_FM, among others - these are our official news sources in South Africa. Lastly, while the point has been made about the standard or quality of the awards given to the subject, there are many south african actors and personalities with Wikipedia pages with no awards at all. Could we improve the article by removing the references to the awards, perhaps? Some South African personalities with wikipedia pages that have no awards are: Sindi_Dlathu, Connie_Ferguson, Minnie_Dlamini, Khanyi_Mbau, Thando_Thabethe, Pearl_Thusi, Boity_Thulo, among many others.

Last appeal i would like to make to those in this discussion - would really like to bring this article up to standard, and advice i have gotten online is to edit the article down mercilessly and remove anything unnecessary and shorten the article so we can remove any contentious statements. Would any of you be willing to advise me on what i can edit down and remove to salvage this article and save it from deletion? Ash Glover (talk) 08:16, 31 May 2019 (UTC) Would editing this page down to a stub perhaps save it from deletion? Really looking to you guys for advice on how i can salvage my article, would love to keep learning and working on wikipedia.
 * Checked out the links in your reaction, they are about an actor named ZWELI DUBE. The sites aren't about Michael "Micl Snr" Norman. I really don't see the connection. Both don't meet GNG and WP:ENT. Still Delete for me. HM Wilburt (talk) 19:24, 31 May 2019 (UTC)
 * doesn't mention Norman and is about a movie which never happened in the end. I fail to see how such a source would help in saving this article. Fram (talk) 11:22, 31 May 2019 (UTC)

I have a few other articles in mind (not paid for by anyone), that i would like to submit. Ash Glover (talk) 09:37, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment i have cut this article down to its absolute bare minimums and made it a stub, in order to remove anything that is not correctly sourced - can we reconsider deletion? Also would like clarity from an editor what will be considered worthy news sources for future reference - the ones i used were: South_African_Broadcasting_Corporation, CNBC_Africa, The_Times_(South_Africa), Independent_Online_(South_Africa), Metro_FM, if these are not defined as independent and credible, i would like to see the criteria for this classification? Ash Glover (talk) 08:27, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Comment I checked out the modified version and my delete !vote still stands. Just a reminder to as per Paid editing Guidelines this article should have been submitted at WP:AFC and you should not be editing it directly. I honestly do not think this article will survive so I would suggest reading the notability guidelines at WP:FILMMAKER and wait for him to meet them and then rewrite the article and submit it at WP:AFC. Dom from Paris (talk) 09:29, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
 * Ah, thank you for that info,, that is actually super helpful, i will do so in future, and apologies for the direct edits, i thought this was the correct approach - lesson learned!


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.