Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael G. Foster


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   keep per WP:HEY. Bearian (talk) 00:15, 27 July 2010 (UTC)

Michael G. Foster

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  )

Non-notable martial artist. Fails to meet any of the criteria in WP:MANOTE. His claim to fame was founding an offshoot (found non-notable by AfD) of a martial art that was also deleted for lack of notability.


 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Martial arts-related deletion discussions.  —Papaursa (talk) 03:38, 3 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete Article has no independent sources and fails WP:MANOTE. 131.118.229.82 (talk) 16:51, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete I find nothing that shows this guy is notable. Astudent0 (talk) 18:25, 7 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Retain The various organizations within the the Yoshukai have put up their own articles, so you're not seeing the full scope of the kai which is mostly due to the development actions of Mike Foster. I'll work on the references. Pkeets (talk) 07:30, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * You have to go back a ways for sources. The practitioners who brought karate to the US in the late fifties and early sixties are now in their seventies or eighties. Pkeets (talk) 16:15, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, check the article now. I rewrote it to show notability and added third party references--I believe there are now five plus.  How many do you want?Pkeets (talk) 22:32, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ron Ritzman (talk) 00:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Retain The article now meets the notability requirement. Pkeets (talk) 03:38, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Please vote just once. Papaursa (talk) 03:56, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment. I have read through the article and performed a cursory search for sources. I think the subject would meet criteria 1 (subject of independent documentary) and 4 (finalist in significant competition) of WP:WPMA/N, but the article does not specify what the USKA is (or was), and provides no reference for the European Karate Champion title. If the USKA and European competitions can be shown to be significant national/international tournaments, I think that would provide better support for notability. Janggeom (talk) 09:39, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The USKA was the United States Karate Association and was the first karate organization in the United States, founded by Robert Trias in 1948. Trias also opened the first karate school in the US in 1946. The USKA became one of the largest associations of karate instructors in the nation, and through this organization Trias was also instrumental in setting up and promoting the first karate tournaments in the nation, as well as the first world-wide competitions.  The Euro-Cup Competitions are overseen by the European Karate Federation.Pkeets (talk) 15:51, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

 Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz Humbug! 07:31, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so consensus may be reached.


 * Has been improved but we need more clarity on whether the improvement is enough Spartaz Humbug! 07:32, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Delete. Improvement aside, he appears to be a man who has a job.  I'm not seeing the notability.  --Falcon Darkstar Momot (talk) 08:07, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Further comment: I could not find the documentary. The criteria at WP:WPMA/N would seem to indicate that you need more than just an appearance in the finals of a significant competition, and I would tend to agree.  --Falcon Darkstar Momot (talk) 08:11, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * See Swift, Jack. "The Giant of Southern Karate." Black Belt Magazine, February 1973, p. 31.


 * Keep In its current state, the article is well-written and well-referenced. To me he seems to be much more than just any man with a job... his actions have gained what I consider widespread coverage. It's another case of something that doesn't make world-wide mass media, yet is clearly still very important to a large number of people. DubZog (talk) 12:50, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Comment I agree the article is much improved. I still don't see much in the way of independent sources that show he meets WP:MANOTE.  Yes, he's given seminars and demonstrations, but I don't think that's enough to pass the notability criteria.  I don't believe that claims "based upon testimony" from unknown individuals that say he won unspecified tournaments in the U.S. in the 1960s passes WP:RS.  I know it's hard to get good sources for the early martial arts pioneers in the U.S. Papaursa (talk) 15:12, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The tournaments are not unspecified. The USKA conducted the only national tournament circuit in sixties, and the USKA Grand Championship was the only national championship at that time. The supporting evidence for the four-year championship title isn't bad. One reference is a history page from Tampa Bay, where Foster had his first dojo, and the Chito-ryu source independently verifies this.  The article in Black Belt verifies the Florida title. Pkeets (talk) 04:36, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Delete or merge with Yoshukai Karate Seems to rely to much on hearsay.Slatersteven (talk) 18:16, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Please elaborate on why you think that. Thanks DubZog (talk) 23:42, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The number of unsourced claims, such as all those trophies. Also I am not sure what all the sources seem to be used for.. Some appear to not be supporting the text of the articel but mealry that something exsts. . I think all the sources need checking.Slatersteven (talk) 11:17, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Note the 1973 source Black Belt Magazine's documentary article "The Giant of Southern Karate" which covers only Mike Foster and references his retirement (undefeated) from the Florida championship position. Regarding the Chito-ryu karate schools and the national USKA title, here's a quote from the Chito-ryu source(unaffiliated with Yoshukai since 1971):


 * "In January 1963 Dometrich Sensei attended a karate tournament in St. Louis, Missouri sponsored by James Wax, Bob Yarnall and Ansei Ushiro of the Matsubayashi Shorin-ryu Karate Federation - Shoshin Nagamine's students. He met a very tall, extremely impressive individual named Mike Foster, who had been a student of Sensei Watanabi and Sensei Mamoru Yamamoto, who was a Chito-ryu Sensei from Northern Kyushu. Sensei Foster had studied karate under Yamamoto when he was in Japan as a member of the U. S. Air Force. Sensei Foster later became the United States karate champion in kumite for the years 1966, 1967, 1968 and 1969. During this time Sensei Foster headed many karate schools which were part of the U. S. Chito-ryu Karate Federation."Pkeets (talk) 18:46, 19 July 2010 (UTC)


 * I've added more references for the championships, and put in sources at the "citations needed" tags. Pkeets (talk) 19:41, 19 July 2010 (UTC)


 * The article supplies secondary references for the following from WP:MANOTE:
 * 1. Subject of an independent article/documentary (Swift, Jack. "The Giant of Southern Karate." Black Belt Magazine, February 1973, p. 31.)
 * 2. Founder of notable style (Yoshukai International - see list of international organizations)
 * 4. Finalist, especially a repeated one, in another significant event;- (e.g. competitors from multiple nations or significant national tournament, not an internal school champion) (United States Karate Asssociation national champion from 1966 to 1969) Pkeets (talk) 03:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * not all of your sources seem to support the text, also I wondert if http://yoshukaitampabay.com/History.aspx is RS. Also you rasie antoiher issue, copyright violations. Much of this articel seems to be lifted verbatum form other sources. Also your quote says "United States karate champion " not "USKA champion". Also the The Giant of Southern Karate source says he won the Grand nationals in florida it does not say "Florida Karate State Champion", and in the title says he gave up the state championship, but not which one (thorough it may have been Florida) it does say that he says he is Florida heavy weight champion, but the article does not confirm this. Moreover which tornament did he win, is it a notable one? Yoshukai International is an organisation, what style does he practice? The only citeria I think he might meet is 1, but is it independant? Also (a general question) does meeting only one of these count (also I would ask you how does this man not meet "1.Only achievement seems to be that they teach an art (or founded a non-notable art)? Slatersteven (talk) 12:08, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Short, attributed snippets of a piece used for the purpose of commentary or education is generally considered fair use under copyright law. Plagiarism is the use of another's language verbatim, but here again, the work is attributed. Original research is not permitted in Wikipedia articles, so it is required to use material from secondary sources.  However, it's best not to have verbatim passages in the article without using quotes.  If you see something in particular that should be quoted, please point it out. Pkeets (talk) 13:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * After complaining about verbatim language above, now you're quibbling because the language doesn't exactly match? Also, I notice you've made a comment at the article that it should be "more in keeping with wording in sources"? The USKA Grand National Champion was the US champion at the time, because there was no other national competition from 1966 to 1969.  Note the use of capitals: USKA Grand National Champion is the specific title, while "US karate champion" is not. I expect that Tampa Bay is reliable--it appears to be part of the subject's organization, which is more likely to have specific information on the activities of the founder, whereas other sources are more likely to be general references, as pointed out above. Pkeets (talk) 12:49, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * WP:MANOTE lists national competitions as significant, and the USKA was the only national competition at the time, so the title meets the requirements for notability. Black Belt Magazine is a reliable source for an independent documentary.  It is commercial, but it provides an excellent record of what was going on at the time.  All articles would have been evaluated by the editors for "importance" to their readers before they ran, which indicates Foster was interesting and important enough for a full documentary article.Pkeets (talk) 13:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Please follow the links in the article for more information. The style is Yoshukai and the organization is Yoshukai International. Pkeets (talk) 13:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * In responce to USKA Grand National Champion this http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QM4DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA52&lpg=PA52&dq=The+USKA+Grand+National+Champion&source=bl&ots=G7up2AhfC3&sig=0vn_IPZLNSTBg1czBmqGQGz5Zh8&hl=en&ei=IZxFTPCRA4Si0gT06823BA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=The%20USKA%20Grand%20National%20Champion&f=false seems to imply there are more then six winners a year (I assume in wieght cats) which one did Mr Foster win? Also I note that My Foster is not mentioned as a winner, yest the claim is made he won that year. So we still need a source for that claim. By the way I doubt his own schools website is RS. This http://karate-in-english-lewis-wallace.blogspot.com/2008/04/tournaments-and-promoters.html seems to imply that hte claim that "The USKA Grand National Champion was the US champion at the time, because there was no other national competition from 1966 to 1969" may not be true. Also it does not list Mr Foster as a winner of "USKA Grand Nationals". is Yoshukai a notable style? Also did he invent the style or just the organisation, as every source I have found says that Yoshukai was created in 1963 by Mr Yamamoto?Slatersteven (talk) 13:13, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * If you're looking at Wallace and Lewis, then I think you're looking at the PKA, which was organized in 1974. It's fairly clear from the Black Belt article that Foster would have been the heavyweight champ as it gives his height and weight. It's a judgement call on the the organization vs. style question. I personally think all the Yoshukai organizations whould be considered the same style. However, it does appear that Yoshukai International was a pretty large organization at its height with a large number of schools and students claiming Foster as their Hanshi. Pkeets (talk) 13:35, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Do not follow your first point, what is it in repose to (if its in reposnse to my first source it says clearly 1967, the year Mr Foster ids supposed to have one, by the way how many cats are there?)? As to your second, we cannot make assumptions, besides we still need RS claiming he won. It does not matter how large the organisationn is. to count for criteria 3 he has to found a notable style, not an organisation, he did not found the Yoshukai style. Also you cannot make claims not expressly supported by RS.Slatersteven (talk) 13:47, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Okay, I had a look at your sources. I suspect the reliability of the blog source.  I may be in error that the USKA was the only national "karate" organization in the sixties, but isn't Kenpo Chinese arts?  I expect weight and rank classes would have varied by tournament, but I have no access to this kind of detail from tournaments in the 1960s. There are multiple sources that reference Foster as the winner in 1967, included one referenced in the article from an independent Chito-ryu history, so I'm unable to resolve this conflict. I notice that the Yoshukai sites list Foster as Kancho, which means head of the style.  Again, this seems to me a judgement call, but as he's noted for adapting traditional techniques for full-contact fighting, then the technique may have departed from earlier Yoshukai sufficiently to call it the beginnings of a different style.Pkeets (talk) 15:03, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It dose I thought it was a type of wedgie? By the way head of style would not mean originator. I sugwst you find a source that says he founded the school (or that his version is sufficantly differnt to be a new style (and also a notalbe style)).
 * By the way we may be dealing with old politics. The blog does not list Mr Foster as winner of the USKA Grand Nationals, but it does not list any winner it ignores the whole period. Given that fact rher was a split it may be that we (perhaps) are delaing with different USKA Grand Nationals or the same one but having stripped him of his titles (or all kinds of sillyness I have not thought of). We would need to clear this up.Slatersteven (talk) 15:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

(tab out) I see that Chito-Ryu Breakaways lists Foster as "founder" and separately from Yamamoto. ( http://www.chitoryu.com/breakaways.htm )

I agree that there may be some politics involved. How do you propose we clear up the conflict between sources? I thought Foster met the notability guidelines, or I wouldn't have gone to the trouble to write the article. Again, there are multiple sources online that refer to him as "karate champion," or "national karate champion," but even the sources used within the article disagree on the details. The USKA was dissolved in 1999, and I doubt original records from the sixties would be available anywhere. Pkeets (talk) 15:50, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * This is talking about the organisation, not the style "In 1980, Foster would break away from Yamamoto to establish his own organization, The Yoshukai International which is unaffiliated with Sensei Yamamoto's Yoshukai Organization". Unfortuantly I doubt there is a way to resolve the conflict in sources, and as such I do not bleive that notability has really been met. It might be better to merge this with Yoshukai Karate.Slatersteven (talk) 15:59, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Sorry, I don't agree. The sources may disagree on dates but it's fairly clear that Foster was a notable national/international champion in the sixties, and that he made significant contributions to the development of world-wide karate as a sport in the late 20th Century.  Notability doesn't expire, and the conflict doesn't negate the fact that the championship is reported by multiple sources. The question is how to handle the  conflict in the dates.Pkeets (talk) 16:19, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * It appears that Yoshukai International was established in 1977 (33 year history) and lists schools in the U.S., Canada, Puerto Rico, Germany, Latvia, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa (international, reports large number of students) and seems to have notable practitioners ( I find Calvin Thomas winning a championship final right off: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNb1tBaV7RA ), but I don't immediately see the independent documentary. My judgement is that Yoshukai International is somewhat notable, but maybe not sufficiently to have its own article without the rest of the Yoshukai body of work.Pkeets (talk) 16:19, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Meeting all of the guidelines in WP:MANOTE isn't required to establish notability, BTW. See Joe Lewis (martial artist) for example, who is apparently only a notable competitor without other qualifications. Pkeets (talk) 16:29, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * How's this? "In the USA, sources list him as the United States kumite champion 1966 through 1969."  This is followed by the Tampa Bay listing of the USKA title, which has slightly different dates.  There may be more than one championship involved. Pkeets (talk) 16:42, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Actually, while checking around, I've located another championship: In 1970 Foster won the black belt heavyweight trophy at the second U.S. International Karate Championships. (See Cirone, George. "Karate Kop-Out." Black Belt Magazine. June 1970, p. 48.) The article seems to be complaining because he declined to participate in a competition between the weight classes at the end of the championships. Note that they have left Delgado out of the list of kumite winners, so their reporting of results isn't especially accurate. http://books.google.com/books?id=pc4DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=larry+pate+karate&source=bl&ots=ZYDsFWn3LP&sig=fiaCLKYakFpdz2Y5bEvj7HCSJn4&hl=en&ei=Kt9FTOSuKsX_lgeq7-jsAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=8&ved=0CCgQ6AEwBw#v=onepage&q=larry%20pate%20karate&f=true Pkeets (talk) 17:57, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * All this does is confirm to me that this is going to be hard to prove notability as the sources are so contradictory.Slatersteven (talk) 18:59, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Here's a win reported in the USKA Florida Open 1968 p. 56. http://books.google.com/books?id=aM4DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA56&lpg=PA56&dq=mike+foster+karate+trophy&source=bl&ots=A7-6Em3orm&sig=g124-z9j45drPye7wXRl-rJEvOc&hl=en&ei=kvdFTMrwHoO8lQfWsOTsAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CCMQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q&f=true Here's an article that describes him as a "three time" USKA Grand Nationals winner.  http://books.google.com/books?id=PdYDAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA56&dq=Mike+Foster+karate&hl=en&ei=hflFTI-FC4G78gbB6rCLBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Mike%20Foster%20karate&f=true  This looks like a win at the USKA Grand Nationals again in 1970, including pictures. http://books.google.com/books?id=f84DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA31&dq=Mike+Foster+karate+%22Mike+Foster%22&hl=en&ei=ZftFTPnZNIK78gbG4v2WBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=Mike%20Foster%20karate%20%22Mike%20Foster%22&f=true  Since this is unclear in the sources available, I'll make the USKA Championships date reference more general. Pkeets (talk) 19:49, 20 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Regarding redundant comments left at the article: The information is gathered from several sources, and if you insist on sourcing every phrase, then the article will be unreadable because of the sourcing. Also, if you insist that the language exactly match the sources, then you're requesting plagiarism.  I think the article is sufficiently sourced and that your complaints are unfounded. Would it help if I spelled the subject's name as Maikeru Fashita? Pkeets (talk) 04:06, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I am asking that you source claims such as winning trophies or which do not match what the sources say. Sources do not have to be used word for word, but they do have to say what the articel says, not what you want them to say. A source has to explicitly support the articel. Also you have still not established that he is the Founder of notable style (style not school or governing body) or to clear up (you have just added more sources that add to the mud) the question of his titles (which not everyone seems to think he had). This is interesting, not only does it seem to imply that (at this time) the USKA championship was not ‘the big time’. But also Mt Foster is not listed as a winner, and yet the following year was defending champion. In fact it says that Joe Lewis won the grand championship that year (1969) it also does not list Mr Foster as defeding champion, in fact mR Lewis beats someone else http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=M84DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA53&dq=USKA+Grand+National+Champion+1969&hl=en&ei=D-NGTObfAdOQjAfT4ez0Bg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=USKA%20Grand%20National%20Champion%201969&f=false. This http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ps4DAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA30&lpg=PA30&dq=uska+grand+national+champion+1970&source=bl&ots=p8Jdo9e1kM&sig=mvRtBn_GNXcRHp1r5wD-Apfivy4&hl=en&ei=KvhGTIKOLZKi0gTzrp3GBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CB0Q6AEwAjgK#v=onepage&q=uska%20grand%20national%20champion%201970&f=false says that in the 1970 grand championship Lewis was defending and lost to Bill Wallace. So I think we may be talking about different titles. Slatersteven (talk) 11:50, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Keep I believe hes a keeper as per Pkeets hard work in finding this old refs ..and when using the name  Mike Foster there are things to be found aswell. like this. Moxy (talk) 04:44, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
 * Keep When I put this up for AfD, it seemed like a straightforward and clear cut decision. I did not expect this much in the way of comments and effort.  I wish this much effort had gone into the original writing of the article, but that's another story.  I still have some issues with some of the things that have been mentioned previously (thanks to Pkeet and Slatersteven for their work), but I believe there is now enough evidence to justify keeping the article.  I hope the aforementioned issues can be cleared up.  I will not withdraw the AfD nomination, since others still believe it should be deleted and have a right to their opinion. Papaursa (talk) 22:33, 21 July 2010 (UTC)


 * What issues? This is a good opportunity to improve the article. Pkeets (talk) 00:10, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I was bothered by the fact that some of the sources describing his titles weren't really independent, but the additional BB magazine articles have helped. The main thing bothering me now is the apparent uncertainty about exactly what he won and when he won it. Papaursa (talk) 01:38, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I don't know that I can do anything about that except make the dates more general, and say such things as "sources report..." As mentioned above, the sources conflict and the Black Belt Magazine reports of competition results are clearly inaccurate (see Delgado).  I have no access to tournament results from the sixties.  Any suggestions? Pkeets (talk) 03:44, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * I think the best way would be to say the source in the context of the page like : According to Black belt magazine or Karate international etc.... I think the "Puffery" wikirule best describes what we should do in this case of conflicting sources (not that its is Puffery in the case... anyways just see the  example  here--->Manual of Style (words to watch)). Moxy (talk) 03:51, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * Here's the specific list with the sources where I've recorded the info. I'll put this approximate list into the article, but I don't know that it will improve the style. BTW, I still have concerns about the appearance of such dense sourcing.  When I see an article with every statement referenced, then I expect it's been challenged. Why, for example, should citations be provided for the statement that Foster established and headed Chito-ryu schools in the early sixties? Will this protect the article from further challenges later on?


 * because 'facts' have to be verifiable. That is how wiki works. Nor is every statement sourced.Slatersteven (talk) 12:39, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * All-Service Karate Champion in Japan (no date) - Tampa Bay


 * Southern All-Japan Champion in 1965 - Tampa Bay & Chito-ryu


 * Three-time United States Karate Association (USKA) Grand National Champion - Black Belt Magazine & Tampa Bay (BBM says three, TB says four times. Dates are uncertain (1966-1970?) and details in BBM are haphazard and confusing.)


 * Florida Karate State Champion from 1967 to 1975 - Black Belt Magazine & Tampa Bay (Dates are from Tampa Bay, but the championship is mentioned in BBM without further details.)


 * Duisberg Euro-Cup Karate Champion in 1978 - Tampa Bay and Yoshukai Latvia (Championship listed by TB, date is from YL, but not described in the same words.)


 * U.S. International Karate Championship in 1970 - Black Belt Magazine Pkeets (talk) 05:26, 22 July 2010 (UTC)


 * How is Duisberg Euro-Cup Karate Champion described in Yoshukai Latvia?. Also Tampa Bay is his organisation so cannot be RS.
 * I will also still keep my vote as is, I am not sure what is gouing on with sources. But I do not bleive that what we are reading from Black Belt is independant of the source (the main Black Belt article seems to be about putting his side of the story in part). The magazine may be but not the person writing the articles. If another indepth source could be found I might change my mind on that. Alo how can he have been florida state champion in 1970 to 1973 when the Black belt magazine (1973) says he gave up the championship 3 years ago? In nfact that6 articel makes clear that he thinkls hes still the champion he has just not compeated.Slatersteven (talk) 12:39, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * All-Service Karate Champion in Japan, Dubious source (his own organisation)
 * Southern All-Japan Champion in 1965, one good source (but is this a notable title?) Leave out the other (his own organisation)
 * Three-time United States Karate Association (USKA) Grand National Champion, A good source for this Rough, Tough Yoshukai Karate: Traditional Karate's Link to Full-contact Fighting. Leave out the other as it does not really say this, and in fact is a contested year (there was another victor in 1970)
 * U.S. International Karate Champion in 1970, sorry source only says first place in Black belt division it says Delgado won, for a second year


 * Florida Karate State Champion from 1967 to 1975, Dubious source (his own organisation). Other source lists him as a winner, but does not give any details other then to imply that he did not compete in three of these years.
 * Duisberg Euro-Cup Karate Champion in 1978, Dubious source (his own organisation). I cannot find any reference to the Duisberg Euro-Cup Karate Champion in then other source the closest seems to be the statement that he “participated also here as the 7th Dan in championships and could prove his superiority.”.Slatersteven (talk) 14:42, 22 July 2010 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.