Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michael White (British politician)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   delete. Mark Arsten (talk) 05:05, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Michael White (British politician)

 * – ( View AfD View log  •  Stats )

I do not see that this is notable by our standards for politicians. Or do we accept being Leader of one of the London Borough Councils as notability?

This is an accepted afc submission that I would have regarded as having an entirely promotional intent.  DGG ( talk ) 03:43, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete London has 32 borough councils. I would readily accept the notability of an elected official representing all of London, or even a major subdivision of London. But not an official representing approximately 1/32 of London. In my judgment, this person fails WP:POLITICIAN.  Cullen 328  Let's discuss it  04:20, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 04:36, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of England-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 04:36, 5 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep The borough has a population which is comparable in size with a country such as Iceland or a city such as Orlando. We have articles about the political leaders of those places and I see no reason to discriminate against this case. Warden (talk) 18:08, 5 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete - Clearly fail WP:POLITICIANS. Political leader of a country or a major city is very different to a small part of a city. KTC (talk) 00:26, 6 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete per Cullen328 and KTC. As far as I know, we usually have deleted city commssioners and borough officers ("although precedent has tended to favor keeping members of the main citywide government of internationally famous metropolitan areas such as ... London." (Empashis added). Bearian (talk) 18:50, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
 * For similar American examples, we deleted New York City-area local pols Bruce Blakeman and Gail Goode (for whom I !voted "weak delete"). Bearian (talk) 18:56, 7 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Keep Bearian the two examples that you have listed as similar are of candidates that failed elections, and therefore only candidates. This article is about a politician who has held their office for a period of 8 years with a mandate lasting until 2014. Also, with regard to DGG's comment, the article is not of promotional intent, the article includes only the roles that he has held at Havering Council and his stated aims/focuses. The article does not at any point make a judgement on the quality of his actions, but merely states that he made them, therefore I do not believe it to be promotional. Auck11 —Preceding undated comment added 08:41, 8 August 2012 (UTC) — Auck11 (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * if paragraphs like "In his role as Leader of the Council, Cllr. Michael White leads the decision-making process and directs strategic policy-making and budget setting. Cllr. White works closely with the Council's Corporate Management and Chief Executive to deliver local services for the residents of Havering." are not promotional, nothing is. Totally routine puffery.  DGG ( talk ) 07:37, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * That is not promotional, surely it is to be expected that the elected leader of a council leads the decision-making? Might I point you to the page of Steve Reed, leader of a borough that is only marginally bigger than Havering (by population) with content that comments on his successes. E.g. "Under Reed’s leadership Lambeth moved from a one-star rating in the Audit Commission’s annual inspection in 2006/7 to a three-star rating in 2008/9". I don't see how content such as that can not be deemed promotional while this article is. Auck11 (talk 15:32 9 August 2012 (GMT)
 * I read otherwise. As any conceivable mayor/chairman/leader/president of any organization political or otherwise will "lead... the decision-making process and direct... strategic policy-making and budget setting.", or at least think they are doing these things, and as not one element of this can usually be actually substantiated or is substantiated in this article, and since success in such a position depends on how effectively they do it, not whether it is done at all, this is meaningless promotional advertisement, amounting to the same thing as saying that he goes daily to his office, On the other hand, that under someone's leadership an organization evolved from a low to a high rating as given by some objective source, is a valid measure of accomplishment. It can always be doubted how much the individual contributed to the result, but chief executives are ordinarily judged by just such a criterion. The two selections thus illustrate nicely the difference between information and empty PR talk.  That an ed. here   could not see the difference indicates the success of the PR industry in confusing substance with empty wording, not just in their own writing but in our minds.   DGG ( talk ) 22:18, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Not so. Most English mayors have no executive power as the role is largely ceremonial.  Similarly the chairman of many organisations is not an executive.  And the Queen of England's role is not executive.  As there is clearly much scope for confusion and misunderstanding, it seems helpful to our readers to have the powers of such officials explained and detailed. Warden (talk) 15:09, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep Looking through Wikipedia I have found articles on the Leader's or Elected Mayor's of the London Boroughs of: Newham, Lewisham, Hackney, Lambeth, Kensington & Chelsea and Tower Hamlets. If these articles fit the criteria of WP:POLITICIAN then out of balance, so should this article. Auck11 (talk • contribs) 00:10 9 August 2012 (GMT)
 * Indented duplicate !vote by Auck11. KTC (talk) 09:52, 9 August 2012 (UTC)


 * Very marginal -- I think it would be difficult to resist allowing articles on elected mayors, but I am doubtful if leaders of councils (except in great cities) are sufficiently notable to warrant articles. He is merely leader of the council in one of a couple of dozen London boroughs.  Peterkingiron (talk) 17:52, 11 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Dori ☾Talk ☯ Contribs☽ 04:11, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

 Delete England is so littered with Lords, Ladies, Lands, and Titles - is there really a need to add another minor English official to the seemingly limitless listings of other so "invested" figures? Just because there are listings for "X" or "Y" politicians does not mean we need succumb to WP:OTHERCRAP. Once the Queen wields Excalibur over his shoulder, shouldn't we then begin to consider meeting the WP:GNG criteria? Яεñ99 (talk) 08:30, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete On balance, I do not think that to be the leader of a council should be regarded in itself as meeting notability guidelines, though we need to treat them on a case for case basis, and the leaders of the largest authorities and those who have some prominence outside their area should go in. To explain things to those not familiar with the UK political system, and especially to the person who commented above, the council leader is the chief political figure of a local authority of in this case 237,000 people and has considerable political power and influence locally. It is not a trivial post, and it is difficult to make comparisons directly with other places even in the UK where the administrative arrangements vary let alone internationally. But from my own observations of a unitary authority of comparable size (LB Havering is not) I would not expect the leader to warrant a place in WP. It follows that I do not think that political leaders of other local authorities should automatically be in either. --AJHingston (talk) 10:04, 13 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Keep. I am inclined to say we should keep articles on leaders of county and unitary authority (although not district) councils. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:34, 14 August 2012 (UTC)
 * Delete - in agreement with DGG and others, unless Mr White has any more claim to notability than the normal "Buggins' turn" council leaders. Anyone know his likely term of office, in case that makes a difference? Dave.Dunford (talk) 19:31, 15 August 2012 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.