Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Michigan–Penn State football rivalry


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Liz Read! Talk! 02:31, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Michigan–Penn State football rivalry

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

While these two storied programs have played a number of memorable, high-profile games, I don't believe that the reliable sources establish this as a notable rivalry. None of the 76 citations in the article contain the word "rivalry" in their titles and cursory examination of the content of those sources finds no explicit mention of this rivalry. Jweiss11 (talk) 05:09, 22 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: American football, Michigan,  and Pennsylvania.  Spiderone (Talk to Spider) 06:43, 22 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep. Since Penn State joined the Big Ten 30 years ago, these teams (both ranking among the top 10 programs of all time) have played on a yearly basis, and it has grown into a notable rivalry. This piece from Bleacher Report ranks Michigan at #2 among teams Penn State loves to beat. Also, Michigan has been chosen as Penn State's "White Out" opponent more than any other school. Finally, while the rivalry is not as big as Michigan's rivalry with Ohio State, there are plenty of sources recognizing it as a rivalry. Here are a few examples:
 * "Michigan vs Penn State: Best rivalry games, an episode of "NCAA Football Classics" produced by ESPN on the greatest moments in the rivalry
 * "Penn State and Michigan Meet Again. These Are The Top 5 Moments In The Rivalry's History, The Philadelphia Inquirer
 * "Michigan Penn State rivalry already a biggie", AP story, 1994
 * "Michigan vs. Penn State: The 10 biggest blowouts in rivalry history", Saturdaytradition.com
 * The Wolverine this fall wrote about the top 10 match between the programs: "Saturday’s matchup is the first time this rivalry feels like the opening phase from 1993-97."
 * "A heated rivalry. The Penn State-Michigan rivalry has been dead-even ..."
 * "Michigan vs. Penn State still a throwback ... The Wolverines and Nittany Lions, both undefeated, have an intriguing rivalry that dates to Penn State's first ...", Minneapolis Star Tribune
 * "Penn State heats up rivalry: ... 'I think the rivalry was there the day they let Penn State in the Big Ten,' Moeller said."
 * No. 5 Michigan runs all over Big 10 rival No. 10 Penn State in dominating win, Fox News
 * Cbl62 (talk) 06:49, 22 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Keep notable rivalry. Cbl62 found quite a few sources to WP:V Bruxton (talk) 18:35, 22 December 2022 (UTC)

If someone can weave some of these sources that establish the rivlary into the article, I will happily withdraw this nominaton. Jweiss11 (talk) 00:31, 23 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Weak keep as a Michigan fan, I certainly don't view this matchup as having the same intensity as our rivalries with Ohio State or Michigan State. However, I think the seeds of a strong rivalry are gradually being sown. While I'm not fully convinced at present, I'd say enough evidence has been presented to retain the article. L EPRICAVARK ( talk ) 17:41, 24 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Delete the sources above do not do anything to establish Michigan and Penn State as rivals. Many publications use buzzwords like "rivalry" to get clicks or manufacture hype, but it takes more than a few reporters to think a rivalry exists when it simply isn't so.  Going through the list presented by Cbl62:
 * The ESPN video shows highlights from their game and only describes them as "rivals" in the title.
 * The Philadelphia Enquirer source, the "Heated rivalry" article, the Saturday tradition page, the Fox news page, and The Wolverine page are all the same way. Uses the term "rivalry" in the title and zero or one time in the article but only describe the series of games as a series of games between any two teams could be described.
 * The two AP sources only establish the possibility of a rivalry based on quotes from a former Michigan head coach, making it not independent coverage (for the purposes of this article).
 * The only source that establishes a rivalry may exist by GNG standards is the Star Triblue source which refers to Michigan and Penn State as "rivals" a few times "developed into an intriguing rivalry, "On Saturday in Ann Arbor (...), the rivalry brings a top-10 matchup," and "[Jim] Harbaugh, preparing for the latest installment in a rivalry started nearly 30 years ago" but doesn't do much to support its claim of the teams being rivals.
 * So we are looking at one source that possibly passes WP:GNG for the purpose of establishing this series as a rialry. And there are several other pages that specifically describe Michigan and Penn State as not being rivals as well.     Frank   Anchor  04:00, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I'm sorry Frank, I generally respect your views on football AfDs, but you've cited three bloggers which question whether the rivalry is a true rivalry. That hardly undercuts the dozens of actual reliable sources covering three decades that agree it's a rivalry. I really don't understand the antipathy to such articles. When we don't have sources that call it a rivalry, that's a reason to delete. When we find such articles, folks say "we know better than the reliable sources ... it's not a real rivalry." That's not how this should work. We have many, many sources discussing it as a rivalry. This is one of the most notable series in college football. Cbl62 (talk) 14:14, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * User:Cbl62, I agree that as longtime contributors we are usually we are on the same page when it comes to college football articles among other subjects. This time I just don’t see enough to establish a “rivalry” exists based on my above analysis of the sources presented above. i believe sources using terms like “rivals” once without explaining why the teams are rivals (and being two top programs in the same conference does not automatically make them rivals) is not enough to satisfy GNG for the purposes of a rivalry article
 * I understand your "true rival"-centric point of view, but here's another perspective. We have about 250 college football "rivalry" articles, the vast majority of which never have and never will receive SIGCOV outside of a couple small college towns. See most of Category:College football rivalries in the United States. They may be rivalries, but they are not even remotely close in notability to the Michigan-Penn State series/rivalry. The Michigan-Penn State game receives abundant SIGCOV every year in national media outlets. Indeed, if you were to pick the three Big Ten matchups that receive the most national media attention and have the greatest impact on the conference and national championship pictures, it would be the triangular rivalry between the conference's big powers -- Ohio State, Michigan, and Penn State. Two of the links in that triangle already have rivalry articles (Ohio State-Penn State and Michigan-Ohio State. The current article closes the triangle. Based on sheer volume of SIGCOV, the national scope of coverage, and impact on the championship races, Michigan-Penn State pretty clearly ranks among the top 10 percent of rivalries. This article is overdue and should be kept and improved. Cbl62 (talk) 15:30, 27 December 2022 (UTC)


 * Rename or weak delete. I agree with Frank Anchor that the cited articles above are mostly just using "rivalry" in the title as a synonym for "long running series". I think similar citations could be found for many Team vs. Team matchups that you would not consider "rivals".


 * I probably support having more notable "series matchup history" articles like this on wikipedia, but we don't need to pigeonhole them as "rivalry" pages. PK-WIKI (talk) 07:22, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I strongly oppose a rename to Michigan Penn State “series” (or similar). This series is not any more notable than other conference games for either team (particularly Michigan who has been in the Big Ten for over a cenrury). If this article were kept as “series,” then an argument could be made for any series that has had a notable game or two and could create unnecessary content forks everywhere.  This page needs deleted, not renamed.  Frank   Anchor  13:01, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * I strongly oppose deletion. An every-year match between two of the top 10 programs of all-time is not like "any series that has a notable game or two". This is a plainly notable series ... and a rivalry as well. Cbl62 (talk) 14:07, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The fact that both teams are in the top ten all time and play each other annually is impressive, but it is WP:OR in terms of establishing a rivalry. No rivalry exists between these teams (as shown by the cited articles not explaining that there is a rivalry and only using the term as it would any other series). FWIW I think a lot of the other pages in Category:College football rivalries in the United States could be deleted as well, but realize I am in the minority in that opinion for those other pages.  Frank   Anchor  19:29, 28 December 2022 (UTC)
 * The rivalry is not based on "original research". Major reliable sources, including ESPN, the Associated Press, Fox News, The Philadelphia Inquirer, Minneapolis Star Tribune, etc., all discuss it as and call it a rivalry. Your subjective belief and assertion that these sources don't really mean it (or are misusing the term rivalry) is the only thing here that constitutes original research. Cbl62 (talk) 19:48, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

Relisting comment: I'm relisting this discussion as it is still receiving new comments today. My first impression though is that those advocating Keeping the article have made a stronger case. But the final decision will be up to the closer.
 * Weak Keep, per sources shown by Cbl62. BeanieFan11 (talk) 16:42, 27 December 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Just a reminder that a closer can close this discussion whenever they assess a rough consensus here. Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 05:29, 29 December 2022 (UTC) Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 02:05, 6 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Merge, what if the content were summarized and merged into both the Penn State and Michigan pages? It does not appear to me that the sources on their own merit notability and sigcov for this to have its own article. — Moops  ⋠ T ⋡ 06:03, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * , Where do you propose it be merged into Michigan Wolverines football and Penn State Nittany Lions football? In the rivalry sections? Seems in that case we would be acknowledging Michigan–Penn State as a rivalry, but a not big enough rivalry to warrant its own article? Jweiss11 (talk) 06:24, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 * Yeah I think that is just about what I am saying. I think that still stands up to reason, no? TY — Moops  ⋠ T ⋡ 06:25, 29 December 2022 (UTC)
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Weak keep: There's going to be significant coverage that exists for any series nowadays, so that makes it tough to judge what is and isn't a rivalry. However, in this case, it's a little more clear based on the links that Cbl62 has shared, that this is often considered a rivalry. I think it appears to be notable and it will continue to become more notable moving forward. Hey man im josh (talk) 21:52, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
 * Keep. Yes, this is a notable football rivalry. The sources provided by Cbl62, taken together with the sources in the article, make this painfully clear that this has received significant coverage by multiple independent reliable sources over three decades. —  Red-tailed hawk (nest) 20:07, 8 January 2023 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.