Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mike Hamilton (guitarist)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   Keep. Although by far not an ideal AfD, what with incivility and sockpuppets, spa's, etc; it is evident that reliable sources were ultimately provided that even satisfied those originally opining delete who continued to follow the discussion.  Jerry  delusional ¤ kangaroo 16:02, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Mike Hamilton (guitarist)

 * ( [ delete] ) – (View AfD) (View log)

I'm really not certain about this article. Based on my limited knowledge of WP:MUSIC, I am concerned this entry does not qualify under the notability rules. The artist seems to have produced one CD, though recorded with numerous notable artists -- is this sufficient for notability? MidgleyDJ (talk) 01:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


 * keep This article conforms to the guidelines of notability and the facts are verifiable. Many of the albums Mike Hamilton has performed on are certified gold and platinum in many countries. Several of the hit songs on these albums have been nominated for and received the Grammy. Some of these albums have been nominated for the Grammy. Truly recognized studio musicians in pop, jazz, blues and rock are always going to be interesting and notable encyclopedic material. Many music fans of all ages are fascinated by these types of facts.  Mike Hamilton's documented work as a studio musician and touring sideman for major league music artists must stop being questioned here.   This article has been improved some (Discography) but some vital information has been lost. I trust that we will try to rebuild the new improved version as time goes on. In response to Midgley DJ, many notable and prolific instrumentalists have none or very few CDs/albums under their own name because they're too busy making tons of music on other bandleaders' albums. Just do a little research and the notability of Mike Hamilton's contributions in pop/rock/new age music will make sense to you.Mikehamilton (talk) 09:27, 15 September 2008 (UTC) — Mikehamilton (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.


 * delete; autobiographical. Simply taking part as a session artist does not infer notability; nor should a claim for grammy nominations count as there is no way of knowing if the artist in question did anything that caused the nominations. No third party references either and google doesn't appear to find anything useful (although it is a common name) --Blowdart | talk 09:57, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Bands and musicians-related deletion discussions.   -- • Gene93k (talk) 11:52, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * comment; Taking part as a session artist on projects such as these CONFIRMS notability. It reads so in the guidelines. The Grammy nominations are not merely claims, they are fact. How about his guitar playing and singing were a part of the MUSIC that received the nomination and the awards. Hamilton was a member of the Kenny Loggins Band for about 7 years. (longer than the Beatles were together)They performed on Satruday Night Live and every Major rock concert hall in all of the USA sharing the bill with Fleetwood Mac, Journey, Chick Corea, Al Di Miola, Hall and Oates, Jack Tempchin, Larry Carlton, The Cars (before they were famous) Dave Mason, Firefall -This stuff should be in Hamilton's article Please visit in wikipedia;  Eric Drew Feldman, Peter Kater, Jack Tempchin, Moris Tepper. This type of article is standard procedure for people like them and Mr. Hamilton. Someone hiding behind something as disgusting as "blowdart" shouldn't even be allowed to discuss these matters in this forum. I'm insulted. What are the credentials of blowdart to discuss studio and concert performing musicians? signed, archivist.Mikehamilton (talk) 13:12, 15 September 2008 (UTC) — Mikehamilton (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * comment If you/he was a member of the Kenny Loggins band for 7 years then you should be able to find a reference. Sharing the bill with others does not prove notability; notability is not inherited. Looking at your examples Eric Drew Feldman is mentioned in a book and has his own band, as well as producing albums, Peter Kater appears to have been grammy nominated as himself, not on the "coattails" of others' works, Jack Tempchin has his own albums and writing credits on notable songs, and Moris Tepper appears to have been part of a band, not just a simple sesson artist. The article in question fails WP:MUSIC. I would remind you that personal attacks and attempts to wikilawyer or insult other users are a breach of Etiquette.--Blowdart | talk 13:37, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep : This decision isn't about who Blowdart thinks wins the popularity contest. The references and sources are verifiable and the achievements are  notable. Mitch Mitchell was not riding on the "coattails" of Jimi Hendrix or maybe Blowdart wants to argue about that too.Twelvetone (talk) 03:12, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Struck this "vote" as the user has been indefinitely blocked as a sock. Stifle (talk) 14:51, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete: Ask me if session guys get too little attention, and I'll say "yes."  Ask me if they're the unsung heroes of rock, and I'll say "yes."  Ask me if these largely anonymous workers are encyclopedic, when they remain session guys and unsung, and I'll say "no."  When a session guy does a solo project or writes a book or does something as himself, then there is a chance for a biography.  Until then, this is a person working to be heard and not known, a person working from charts, not a person who is composing, and he is at the level of a player in an orchestra.  Utgard Loki (talk) 13:34, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete per WP:MUSIC, and with a COI/vanity problem thrown in. Mikehamilton's behaviour in this AfD isn't helping matters any, either.  Andrew Lenahan -  St ar bli nd  13:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete fails WP:MUSIC. WP:COI and WP:OWN concerns. Oh, and Mike, The Beatles existed for ten years (1960 to 1970), not seven. Doc StrangeMailbox Logbook 16:20, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Do Not Delete ; The references are listed and they are valid. When a session guy is a featured soloist he is a notable part of the music, and all this snobbery and vanity in the" delete comments" is wasting all of our time. Look at the sequence of album release. Loggins had a steady BAND for several years and Hamilton was in it. signed, archivistMikehamilton (talk) 17:34, 15 September 2008 (UTC) — Mikehamilton (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Reply Liner notes aren't what we mean when we talk about reliable sources. What's needed are magazine articles, newspaper articles, and books that have been written about this person, sources that we can use to verify information about the musician and his importance in his field.  -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 17:43, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Struck this second "vote" from the same account. Stifle (talk) 14:50, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete. If reliable sources of information about this person are not available, then there is no way to verify the information in the article. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 17:39, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. I have reverted two edits by a new user User:Flatnine. This was a new account that simply changed the comments by Mikehamilton to be signed by itself, and changed the Do not delete text to keep. The fact that it was a new user, who removed signatures and attempted to take ownership of the obviously COI votes smells. --Blowdart | talk 20:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep Here's why. In Wikipedia go to "Articles For Deletion". Now read the section on "How to discuss an AfD". You will learn that every single vote to delete on this page uses improper and unacceptable logic and criticism. This is NOT a vote or a top 20 countdown popularity contest. Notable means able to be noted and/or worthy to be noted. If this were not the case, the Mike Hamilton (guitarist) article would have received speedy deletion days ago. Some very cynical and bitter critics keep trying to state "Oh, this guy is more notable than that guy" or " Who does he think he is claiming that rhythm and improvised lead guitar and harmony vocals have anything to do with relevant and notable music." These kind of sour grapes comments have no place in this forum as stated in the HOW TO DISCUSS AN AfD section of Wikipedia. These delete - enthusiasts also continually and blatantly ignore the valid and complete REFERENCES AND LINKS so clearly stated in the Hamilton article. Some of these more corrupt hacker- types have repeatedly been deleting entries in the  References section. I say the only verdict is to KEEP so everybody can get back to work.Twelvetone (talk) 23:29, 15 September 2008 (UTC) — Twelvetone (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment "Notable means able to be noted and/or worthy to be noted." Actually, in the context of WP:N it means not just "worthy of note" but that it actually has been noted, as evidenced by the presence of the requisite reliable, verifiable, independent sources. That I think something deserves note or is worthy of note is immaterial. What matters is; have other people/publications already noted the subject of the article. Now looking through some of the concert reviews and such in the Press link of the artist's website there do seem to be cases where he is mentioned in more than just a line-up list, which may meet the "significant coverage" criteria. It would be a damned site easier to justify notability if there were some kind of feature on the Kenny Loggins band which addressed Hamilton directly in that context though. Right now a chunk of the notability is by inference, which makes it marginal. MadScot (talk) 01:06, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment I think MadScot Speaks the truth when he notes the fact that the verifiable resources and sources meet the "significant coverage" criteria. This article is not just about Hamilton with the Kenny Loggins Band although that is a strong phase of his career.Twelvetone (talk) 02:59, 16 September 2008 (UTC) — Twelvetone (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Twelvetone has been indefinitely blocked as a sock. Stifle (talk) 14:52, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment. I said "may meet the "significant coverage" criteria". I'm not convinced either way, I simple note that they exist and leave it for others to decide. To my mind right now it's marginal, neither keep nor delete. I can't believe that if someone were the member of an established backing band for the time here that they wouldn't have the requisite source out there somewhere, but I can't find it. Probably due to the time/pre-internet factor. MadScot (talk) 03:38, 16 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment User:Mikehamilton has been using User:Twelvetone and User:Flatnine as sockpuppets in an attempt to vote rig. --Blowdart | talk 05:23, 16 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Keep : Blowdart's comment about Hamilton and sockpuppeting can only be an assumption or a misunderstanding. We have discovered some new hard evidence/proof of the verifiable nature of the Hamilton article's content. They are legitimate discography and album personnel facts. There are some album reviews that mention Hamilton as well. We will list a few here. On the internet we start at Google but you can probably go to the websites directly: Mike Hamilton Discography and music at CD Universe, Kenny Loggins Alive 1980: Album Review and songs from www.answers.com, Peter Kater music CDs www.silverlakemusic.com, Ambient Visions Music Reviews (Peter Kater w/Mike Hamilton) www.ambientvisions.com10082005.htm-15k, Loggins album personnel at www.legacyrecordings.com>>news. These and more can be added to the articles References Section. We also feel that adding the proper categories at the bottom of the Wikipedia style article will help. These seem to fit: American Session Guitarists, Musicians, Guitarists, etc.., thanks, signed, Archiveally. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Archiveally (talk • contribs) 21:07, 17 September 2008 (UTC) — Archiveally (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment Considering a checkuser showed the accounts where the same person there is no mistake at all. An AFD is not the place to add references, add them to the article, not here. --Blowdart | talk 21:12, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Reply If they were good sources, it would be okay to list them here. The ones I tried to follow were dead links. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 22:04, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Struck as another blocked sock. Stifle (talk) 14:53, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete There is nothing to indicate that the Mike (or Michael) Hamilton credited on all those albums is even the same person. I'm not saying it's not the same person, just pointing out the unverifiability of the credits. I see no references from reliable sources. Perhaps a redirect to Yacht Rock is in order? — Hello, Control Hello, Tony  21:17, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: Isn't that going a little too far into the ridiculous? Maybe you're a computer chip. Please do even the slightest amount of study on the subject. Go to mikehamiltonmusic.com, and see some photos and articles. Thanks, Archiveally.Archiveally (talk) 21:45, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * It's not up to us Mike, it's up to you to justify it. --Blowdart | talk 21:59, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
 * I've taken the liberty of blocking this latest sockpuppet. Mike Hamilton, I know you're still reading this thread.  We all want to keep articles.  You don't have to attack the page to get us to keep them; we're looking for reasons to keep this article.  But we're used to seeing sockpuppets and insults mostly on articles about non-notable subjects, so your strategy here is actually making it less likely that the article will be kept.  Again, discography and album personnel facts aren't the kinds of sources that we're looking for.  I'm inclined to think that, if anyone would know of articles that have been written about you, you probably would, which makes it seem likely that you just aren't at that bar yet.  You should keep working on your career, and when you do meet the notability criteria, you won't have to do anything, because it's inevitable that one of your many fans will create an article about you without your needing to lift a finger from your guitar. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:53, 17 September 2008 (UTC)


 * Strong Keep needs clean-up, but he's viable.(Jayzee69 (talk) 22:10, 17 September 2008 (UTC))
 * Keep Mike Hamilton started out behaving unhelpfully, but he has very helpfully provided photo scans of newspaper articles and reviews here. Some of those are trivial mentions, but farther down the page are a few reviews which, in my opinion, do meet WP:RS.  Given those sources, I'm changing my vote. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 11:46, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment: Thank You for all the great expertise and skill in cleaning up and linking up these components in a way that makes for a smoother more logical presentation. Thank you for the time you used to help this article. Sincerely, Archivist.Archiveula (talk) 13:16, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep per FisherQueen. Article needs work and better citing but I agree that the clippings seem to show notability; thus I change my !vote. Mikehamilton, Archiveally, and any other sock/meat puppets should, however, be restricted to the articles talk page per WP:COI. — Hello, Control Hello, Tony  13:52, 18 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Delete unless accessible, reliable sources are cited to comply with the verifiability policy. Stifle (talk) 21:18, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Keep There are accessible, reliable sources cited that comply with the verifiability policy.Archiveula (talk) 12:34, 20 September 2008 (UTC) — Archiveula (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Comment Please don't vote multiple times with separate usernames, or even multiple times with the same username. Also please declare your conflict of interest. --Blowdart | talk 12:42, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment For a good example of a similar, comparable article that lives peacefully right here in Wikipedia, please visit Greg Leisz.   Hamilton and Leisz also appear together on several of the same albums and movie soundtracks as session musicians.Archiveula (talk) 14:38, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment Not exactly comparable, Leisz has had his own bands and has not just remained a session musician. --Blowdart | talk 14:45, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
 * Comment The point is that there is an entire category in Wikipedia called American session musicians. Why do you keep harping on that a session musician has no notable career? It's as if you would argue that Steven Spielberg is not a credible producer/director because he isn't also a prolific actor.I want to be polite with you and even maybe try to get to know you a bit, but your arguements at this point in this AfD discussion are like For The Sake of Arguement. I would think that people interested is Session Musicians, Session musicians that also tour, etc., etc., enough to talk about this article would also know more about the topic than you seem to know. No offense, but after your last comment ( one of several similar earlier ones) I am convinced that you no ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ABOUT THE MUSIC BUSINESS. Many notable articles exist about American session musicians. Not all these careers can be exactly pigeon-holed to fit what you seem to think they should be. That's why many articles and user pages have multiple categories listed at the bottom. I noticed at the bottom of the Blowdart user page there is no Administrator listing, yet you seem to keep trying to act like one. You have great computer skill. Try not to abuse it. Any way, Hamilton was a charter member of The Kenny Loggins Band, Max Bennett and Freeway, Pure Prairie League, The Bette Midler Band etc.. There is nothing in the Leisz article about a "Greg Leisz Band"

Blowdart, please visit mikehamiltonmusic.com.Archiveula (talk) 15:54, 20 September 2008 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.