Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Military history of Pakistani Americans


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was   redirect to Pakistani American. I am closing as a redirect rather than delete mostly to preserve the editing history. There were some calls for merge (but not a lot of consensus on where to) so I think this is a reasonable close. Material here can thus be merged to other articles. Should the material at Pakistani American become too lengthy I would suggest that spinning out to a list (eg List of military Pakistani Americans) may be more acceptable than an article that on a subject that cannot be found in reliable sources. SpinningSpark 12:12, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Military history of Pakistani Americans

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As a subject, it does not appear to pass WP:GNG, therefore I am recommending that this article be deleted. While individual Pakistani American servicemembers may be notable per WP:GNG or WP:SOLDIER, as a subject, this does not appear to have received significant coverage in multiple reliable sources. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:48, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:48, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:48, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Pakistan-related deletion discussions. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:48, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:48, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Pakistan-related deletion discussions. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:48, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:48, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:48, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:48, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * Keep as part of a series of military history articles on minority groups. The article is meant to discuss the contributions of Pakistani Americans in the military and sources are given. There are notable service members of Pakistani descent eg. Ali S. Khan. There are articles on military histories of various ethnic and religious groups eg. Military history of Sikh Americans, Military history of African Americans, Military history of Jewish Americans, Military history of Buddhist Americans, Military history of Asian Americans etc.. Pakistanis may be few in number, but they are one of the major groups of Muslim Americans and Asian Americans and some coverage should be given on them too. At the very least, there should be some article on the military history of Muslim Americans, as I can't find any coverage on their military contribution.  Mar4d  ( talk ) 07:32, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete There is a rich history of segregation in the US Service branches, influenced by a still richer history of inequality and segregation across the US as a whole, however the article doesn't seem to encompass any of this over reaching material, preferring instead to focus on the lives of a limited number of Pakistani military service members who could be covered in individual articles here. Without a general discussion on the topic, the article serves no purpose in its current form, and therefore should be deleted. TomStar81 (Talk) 08:23, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete. They make up a tiny portion of the US armed forces (125 naturalized citizens as of 2008, according to the article itself), and only one appears to have an article: Ali S. Khan. The rest mentioned don't satisfy WP:SOLDIER. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:24, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Keep (via Delsort WP Pak) Pakistani Americans are notable and that article is quote lengthy IMO. So it is not just the notability of this specific topic we have to take in consideration here (though it is also present), but additionally, we also consider that this is a child article of that to avoid extra lengthy articles. The same article as it is can not cover content in this one as well. It is wikipedia norm to expand into child articles and goes as per WP:MOS. As far as the notability is concerned, it does seem to be a part of the series noted above but incase there is no conesnses to keep it, it is also a candidate for 'move and expand' to History of Pakistani Americans. But then again, just because no body did the effort to create that article doesn't mean that it will not expand again and require the creation of this article yet again; the article should be given a chance to survive independently on those basis as well as some one will likely create the redlinked article. Pakistan is an undercovered topic and the few editors at WP Pak usually go by creating what interests them most. The topic area expands into new articles haphazardly but the net result is always constructive. -- lTopGunl (talk</b>) 08:41, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Child article? How is this a sub-article? Of what article? It appears to have been created independent of any article it maybe related to.
 * Has there been any books written about the subject? None that I have found.
 * Even in books about minorities in the United States military, such as, there is no mention of Pakistani American military history.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 11:15, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * As an aside LtCol Asad Khan (USMC, ret.), may have sufficient reliable sources about him to pass WP:GNG (though he appears to fail WP:SOLDIER):
 * Times, 2002
 * PBS, 2010
 * Marine Corps Times, 2013
 * U.S. Marines in Afghanistan, 2001-2002: From the Sea
 * --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 11:15, 20 November 2014 (UTC)


 * REDIRECT (and summarize) to Military history of Asian Americans since Pakistani Americans are currently classified as Asian Americans by the United States Census Bureau. Ethnically, they fit the definition of Asian American. Saadkhan12345 (talk) 09:12, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Based on that would you also redirect Pakistani Americans to that Asian Americans? It's an unreasonable idea and USCB is US point of view. -- <b style="color:#060">lTopGunl</b> (<b style="color:#000">talk</b>) 15:07, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Pakistani American, as an ethnicity within the Asian American racial categorization by the OBM & USCB, would (& does) have a stand alone article. That article is not in question at this AfD, as it has received significant coverage, such as:
 * However, just because Pakistani American is a notable subject, does not mean that the subject of this AfD is.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 19:47, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Well actually, I would not redirect Pakistani Americans to Asian Americans and the reason for that there's more than 300,000 Pakistanis in U.S and its a notable subject (It can be considered as a sub-article of Asian Americans article). On the other hand, I think it would be correct to #REDIRECT Military history of Pakistani Americans to Pakistani Americans -(not the old view-to asian americans)-. I would like to hear your thoughts on this. Saadkhan12345 (talk) 12:18, 21 November 2014 (UTC)
 * REDIRECT to Pakistani Americans.... Check it out guys Pakistani American. Its already there in Pakistani Americans which a suitable place for it to be. Saadkhan12345 (talk) 07:50, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * You can't vote twice. And you shouldn't be merging anything from this article to that article yet, until there's a decision here. That's what this WP:AFD is for.  Mar4d  ( talk ) 08:07, 22 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Ok fine...it wasnt meant for merging etc But I just took info from the article and added it to Pakistani Americans military contribution...which should have been there in the first place. This article could be deleted or anything else etc... BTW I had a change of view (not voting twice).
 * Delete as non-notable as individuals and as a group and not really notable to be added to Pakistani American either. MilborneOne (talk) 19:43, 27 November 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete as non-notable as individuals and as a group and not really notable to be added to Pakistani American either. MilborneOne (talk) 19:43, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

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 * Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.


 * Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Randykitty (talk) 17:24, 28 November 2014 (UTC)

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 * Keep, possibly move or merge as suggested. While this is clearly a notable topic, it may be best served by inclusion with a more general overview. Generic fixes are not meant to be debated at AfD. Bearian (talk) 01:16, 2 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Please, how is this a "clearly notable topic"? Where are the reliable sources that give significant coverage of the subject?--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:37, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
 * Delete -- The article is about Americans of Pakistani descent who have served in the American military. It consists of a list of obituariues for those killed in service; and some statistics which show the number of people serving to be NN.  We really do not need this article.  Peterkingiron (talk) 18:54, 4 December 2014 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sam Walton (talk) 12:44, 6 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Move/Expand to Military History of Muslim Americans. That topic has clearly received significant coverage in reliable secondary sources.  The article cites LA Times, NY Times, and Wash Post articles on the wider subject of Muslims in the military. Vrac (talk) 01:51, 16 December 2014 (UTC)
 * Delete. Non-notable intersection of characteristics. Article irredeemably violates WP:NOR. Stifle (talk) 15:01, 17 December 2014 (UTC)
 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.