Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mill Creek (Marin County)


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. It appears that after lots of research everybody agrees (or at least nobody disagrees) that this can be deleted.  Sandstein  20:29, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Mill Creek (Marin County)

 * – ( View AfD View log )

Reason Schmiebel (talk) 01:07, 31 October 2021 (UTC) There is no Mill Creek in the USGS GNIS for Marin County, nor do any maps show a Mill Creek flowing into Richardson Bay. The two references on this page are to a travel guide and another reference to a blocked site. There is an Old Mill Creek that is tributary to Arroyo Corte Madera del Presidio and I have created that page with appropriate name Old Mill Creek (Arroyo Corte Madera del Presidio) with USGS GNIS citation and others.Schmiebel (talk) 01:07, 31 October 2021 (UTC) *Keep Probably need to rename the creek Paper Mill Creek it is a keep per WP:GEOLAND Notable stream/creek this one had Salmon using it and was called Paper Mill Creek in Marin, County. Here is an article from 1892 about the same creek. And an article about the park system in Marin county and the fishing in Paper Mill Creek. Lightburst (talk) 02:13, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Articles for deletion/Log/2021 October 31.  —cyberbot I   Talk to my owner :Online 01:33, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Geography-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 01:44, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 01:44, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Comment: Old mill also exists, but looks more like a colloquial name. Appears more like a neighborhood name. Lots of listings for rentals. and listings. Lightburst (talk) 02:22, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Also labeled Old Mill Creek here on this map: I am now seeing. Here. Not sure now. Maybe there are two. Lightburst (talk) 02:30, 31 October 2021 (UTC)


 * How about a Redirect to Mill Valley, California? We could also create redirects from Paper Mill Creek, California and Old Mill Creek (Marin County) (since there is also an Old Mill Creek in El Dorado County). The geographical description definitely places it in the town of Mill Valley, and several businesses and developments in Mill Valley are named for it (Mill Creek Plaza, Mill Creek Apartments, Mill Creek Meadows). I am personally aware that there is a creek in Mill Valley that flows into the marshes at the edge of Richardson Bay. I don't know the creek's name but it's almost certainly one or several of these. -- MelanieN (talk) 02:24, 31 October 2021 (UTC) I have changed my opinion to Delete after the discussion and research here. See below. -- MelanieN (talk) 05:26, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I am unsure Melanie. I see what is either the same creek, or two creeks with Mill names - in Marin country. Is it possible it has local names applied to it being that it is not a named river like the Columbia? Lightburst (talk) 02:32, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Either is possible - multiple names for a creek, or multiple creeks. Either way a redirect would be useful, particularly if we could incorporate a mention of the creek(s) into the article about the town. -- MelanieN (talk) 02:36, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I think an article is appropriate, a redirect is like a deletion. The Paper Mill Creek has SIGCOV- I just picked three articles. I am sure if I continued I would find more old Mill references also. Lightburst (talk) 02:45, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Well, why don't you write a draft, or better yet an actual article? And if you find out that those are two names for the same creek, put it under whichever name has better sourcing, with an "also known as" descriptor, and incorporate the references for both. This AFD is young, you have time. -- MelanieN (talk) 02:52, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * some others will be along. Might just rename this one. Lightburst (talk) 02:56, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * If you are willing to use additional references to expand this into an article about the creek under all of its names, and then rename this to whatever name has the best support, I would support a keep vote to give you time to do it, or a userfy if you'd rather do it in your own namespace at leisure. I might even help you write it. (On the other hand, do we really have articles about every creek in California? We could just put the information about it into Mill Valley, California.) -- MelanieN (talk) 04:32, 31 October 2021 (UTC) P.S. I just checked on eight creeks I am familiar with in San Diego and in Northern California, and all eight of them have their own articles, so the answer to my question may be yes, we do have articles about known creeks. Here is an example of a creek article with an "also known as". -- MelanieN (talk) 04:32, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * I appreciate the enthusiasm but it would be wise to verify that "Mill Creek" is actually a name that's used by reliable sources and not just something that the article creator came up with. –dlthewave ☎ 04:52, 31 October 2021 (UTC)


 * There does not appear to be (or to have ever been) a "Mill Creek" in Marin County. There's an Old Mill Creek which matches the description in this article, and there's also Lagunitas Creek which was historically known as Paper Mill Creek but is in an entirely different watershed. Neither of these would be a valid redirect for plain old Mill Creek. –dlthewave ☎ 04:44, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Note: I've created redirects for Paper Mill Creek, California and Old Mill Creek (Marin County). –dlthewave ☎ 04:48, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

I just found something at the Mill Valley website that lists the creeks that flow through Mill Valley. It lists Warner Canyon, Corte Madera Del Presidio, Sutton Manor Creek, Cascade Creek, Old Mill Creek, and Reed Creek. To make things more confusing, this history of Mill Valley says that a sawmill was built on Cascade Creek at what is now Old Mill Park - but the city paper I cited above lists Cascade Creek and Old Mill Creek as separate bodies of water. And in response to Dlthewave's comment above, the city also lists Corte Madera del Presidio and Old Mill Creek as separate bodies of water. (It's possible, of course, that some are tributaries of others so that one creek runs into another and takes on its name.) I'm not sure we are ever going to be able to straighten this out - although I have friends in Mill Valley that might be able to. -- MelanieN (talk) 05:03, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Actually, now that I look at the articles Arroyo Corte Madera del Presidio, Old Mill Creek (Arroyo Corte Madera del Presidio), and Lagunitas Creek (of which Paper Mill Creek is a tributary, referring to a paper mill rather than the sawmill after which Old Mill Creek is named). I think these articles have the situation well explained as to what is what, and what is a tributary to what. We should keep them, possibly renaming Old Mill Creek to something simpler like Old Mill Creek (Marin County), and simply delete the article under discussion here. I am going to change my "redirect" recommendation to "delete". -- MelanieN (talk) 05:24, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Old Mill Creek, Warner Creek, Reed Creek, and Widow Reed Creek are all the named tributaries to Arroyo Corte Madera del Presidio. I've added them to the Watershed section of Arroyo Corte Madera del Presidio with reference. I'll add the GNIS refs for these small tributaries now.Schmiebel (talk) 14:03, 31 October 2021 (UTC)


 * 'Thanks, Dlthewave! Creating the REDIRECT for Paper Mill Creek, California is very helpful. Paper Mill Creek is an unofficial name for Lagunitas Creek, also in Marin County, California. I have also created a REDIRECT for just plain "Paper Mill Creek" to Lagunitas Creek. Others, for correct information on stream names, the authoritative source is the United States Geological Survey (USGS) Geographical Names Information System (GNIS). GNIS is referenced on every creek and river in wikipedia in their respective geoboxes. Old Mill Creek is the official USGS Board-recognized name for Old Mill Creek (Arroyo Corte Madera del Presidio) the tributary to Arroyo Corte Madera del Presidio. Their confluence is in Mill Valley, California. You will see the USGS GNIS references for all these wiki pages have links to the USGS GNIS site. There is no Mill Creek in Marin County in the USGS GNIS, so Mill Creek (Marin County) should be deleted.Schmiebel (talk) 14:03, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * it was your nomination so you cannot ivote here. it is a given that you are a delete participant. But I am glad to change my ivote based on new information. My thought was there were historic references to "paper, and old". The puzzle is getting solved. Lightburst (talk) 16:33, 31 October 2021 (UTC)
 * Got it. I deleted my "delete" vote!Schmiebel (talk) 16:41, 31 October 2021 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.