Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Miriam Gonczarska


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep.  Sandstein  07:51, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Miriam Gonczarska

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The coverage (references, external links, etc.) does not seem sufficient to justify this article passing General notability guideline and the more detailed Notability (biographies) requirement. I have looked at the existing refs, and did a Google search, and all I see are mentions in passing - she is occasionally cited in media ("...said Miriam Gonczarska, a native of Poland set to be ordained by Yeshivat Maharat next month..."), but I haven't found a single source dedicated to her (discussing her). There are also some published articles of her, blogs, a radio interview or such, but I am not seeing anything to make her satisfy the notability policies cited above. And while we have an unreferenced claim that "She is the first European and Polish Jewish orthodox women to gain... maharat title", until this is picked up by reliable sources, it is not enough (and for the record, not all rabbis are notable). Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 08:39, 30 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Keep: Miriam Gonczarska is a notable person for the Polish Jews as well as an important person in context of Polish Christian-Jewish dialogue. Her biographical article on polish Wikipedia was discussed for deletion already long ago and a consensus by then was to leave it. Today, she is even more notable since she has received her smicha and became maharat - first Polish and same time same European maharat! that really is notable. Petrus, you say that not all rabbi are notable - no doubt about that - but being first women of Europe and Poland to become maharat (as some say - official debate in orthodox judaism still ongoing - orthodox female rabbi). This movement of elevating role of women is very important in orthodox judaism (although simmilar are ongoing in other religions today) (WP:ANYBIO point 2). Some people call it even feminism within orthodox judaism. Her smicha is also very important for all involved in empowering women to take the responsibility of serving as female religious leaders. So having this biographical article on wiki would also help in #gendergap on the visibility of women-religious leaders on wiki. // And in case you doubt she is first to receive such smicha, just visit the linked (on "Miriam Gonczarska" article) website of the Yeshiva Maharat. It has been founded a few years ago, and it is pretty prestigious and exclusive school. Every year graduates are in small numbers, and all of their bio articles are on school website: you can easily see there that she is first such graduate from this region of world. // Although i might agree that more references might be added - but that's wiki: we hardly ever close the article for further editions - but the article definitly do not deserve deletion. The person is notable and worth having an article on her on our wiki. Same goes for Polish since you had submited it for deletion on both. She is notable and encyclopedic. So let's leave the article! :) --Lantuszka (talk) 12:32, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - per Lantuszka. To be Poland's first maharat (female orthodox rabbi) is significant. Do you have something against her in particular? You tried to get her Polish article deleted last year and it was kept, and you nominated the Polish and English versions again to be deleted. Immediately you have two people on both telling you it should be kept and nobody saying it should be deleted. —Мандичка YO 😜 14:02, 30 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I have something against spam, and I have reviewed the new refs, and I still find her mentioned only in passing. I ask again: which source discusses her life and work in depth? It is not up to us to say that "first fooian foo-job holder" is notable. Which media is saying that she is important for being the first whatever? Also, the present refs most of the time don't support what is being claimed; it seems to me that Lantuszka is doing a lot of OR there. The very claim "She is the first European and Polish Jewish orthodox women to gain such degree and maharat title" is not properly referenced. The Polish ref states "pierwszą ortodoksyjną kobietą w historii Europy, która otrzyma Smichę" -> "first Orthodox women in European history, who received the Semikhah".  just calls her "a native of Poland set to be ordained by Yeshivat Maharat next month". Wikipedia is not the place to clarify or to be someone's promoter. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here  07:28, 1 July 2015 (UTC)
 * User talk:Piotrus, one thing is when article is lacking sources, another is to be non-ency. If you believe that there are not enough sources for article, it's enough to mention that. but it's another thing when you want to delete it. This might be (as i've written above explaining my reason for voting in favour of keeping this article) that indeed it might be for very specific reason, but fact (and i explained how (easily!) you can verify it) is that MGonczarska IS INDEED first maharat and it's very meaningful. You are demanding sources such as "Wysokie Obcasy" or main "Gazeta Wyborcza" - i'm sorry but it is not the final reliable veryfication/qualification for someone to be ency once mentioned there. Also: i understand that it might seem biased that the website jewish.org.pl is the one that mentions Gonczarska as first Polish she-rabbi but this portal is the main and biggest portal of polish jewish communities and culture. So you might treat it as "narrow" expertese, but it is more reliable than Gazeta Wyborcza in this matter. // At the end i'd like to thank you for your precise and detailed attention to this (and many others) article and for that you keep taking care so much for wiki. But as for this particular article, i am deeply convinced it is an ency person and so far resources, however we might keep it as "needing more sources" if you want it to be on perfectly polished and master level of biographies on wikipedia - which would be wonderful and that's definitly the direction where we're all are going while editing :) --Lantuszka (talk) 08:40, 6 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. North America1000 14:24, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. North America1000 14:24, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Poland-related deletion discussions. North America1000 14:24, 2 July 2015 (UTC)


 * Weak keep As much as I would like to keep this article—to me, any female rabbi, by whatever title, is significant—I'm afraid English-language reliable sources seem lacking. While I am hampered by my inability to read Polish, both Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus and Lantuszka are fluent and I trust they would have identified more sources if they existed. For my part, I found a 1994 mention of Gonczarska in The New York Times and a minor 2012 event in New Jersey in which she participated. (I almost found a third mention of Gonczarska in the Baltimore Jewish Times, but it turned out to be a reprint of a source used in our article.) Six years ago, when I wrote an article about the first African-American woman to be ordained a rabbi, there were plenty of sources. It's disappointing that there doesn't appear to be similar media interest in the first European woman to be ordained an Orthodox rabbi. The source cited above (The Polish ref states "pierwszą ortodoksyjną kobietą w historii Europy, która otrzyma Smichę" -> "first Orthodox women in European history, who received the Semikhah".) ought to be enough to establish notability, but (according to our article) Gonczarska "worked with Jewish cultural and religious portal jewish.org.pl" (the source). Which leaves me where I started: weak keep. — Malik Shabazz Talk/Stalk 02:53, 3 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Indeed, I am puzzled about the weak sources. I'd like to keep it too, but we need sources; we cannot just say that "we think it is important". I think she is important, but that doesn't mean she belongs in an encyclopedia. We need independent media to say so, and as you note, the best ref we say seems to have some connection to her. Until we get reliable sources, I am afraid this cannot stay here (through frankly, IF this is deleted, I'd suggest userfication, so we can quickly restore it when new sources are presented, which I'd hope should happen soon). Why this hasn't been covered in GW I just don't understand. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus&#124; reply here 06:00, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Jenks24 (talk) 06:35, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep - I think the sources in the article together with her social/religious activism just squeeze her past WP:GNG. I suppose more sources will appear, considering that her "graduation" was just a month ago. An early mention of her and her plans was in the New York Times in 1994 saying she was "one of the first four Polish youths in memory to undergo an Orthodox conversion.". Kraxler (talk) 14:35, 17 July 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.