Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Miskin Abdal


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎__EXPECTED_UNCONNECTED_PAGE__.  Malinaccier ( talk ) 14:30, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Miskin Abdal

 * – ( View AfD View log | edits since nomination)

Fails WP:GNG and WP:BIO. References cited are unclear, poorly formatted and mostly incapable of verification. Unencyclopedic tone. Created and edited by sockpuppets. Geoff &#124; Who, me? 16:02, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Academics and educators, Politicians, Philosophy, Poetry,  and Azerbaijan.  WC  Quidditch   ☎   ✎  16:20, 27 May 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep: Although the article indeed has a lot of problems, these cannot be a reason for deletion. (The most major issue is the large amount of unsourced content, which may simply be removed.) The topic appears to be notable. There is significant coverage among a multitude of sources: (The last two sources are solely on the details of his life and works.) Aintabli (talk) 03:29, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I did not find any references to the information added to the wiki page in the citations you provided. All I found were statements by those authors and nothing else. HeritageGuardian (talk) 20:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC) — HeritageGuardian (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * There are 5 links, 2 being sources solely about him. I doubt you checked any of them. Your comment and vote below basically disregards what AfD is meant to be for. On top of this, we can all see you created your account 6 minutes before commenting here. Welcome back, I guess! Aintabli (talk) 02:43, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I have checked all your citations from 1 to 5. None of them has any references to the claims made in them and in this Wikipedia article. If you think that I missed them, then you are welcome to present any documentations. HeritageGuardian (talk) 05:29, 29 May 2024 (UTC) — HeritageGuardian (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * That's not the point of those links. Aintabli (talk) 14:59, 29 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I took a look to this page https://az.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miskin_Abdal. There are a lot of absurd statements, like Safavid King Sultan Hossain visited some village in nowadays republic of Armenia. Safavid King Ismail gave an order to M. Abdal and etc. They are absurd, because kings' orders were not given to anybody, but kept in chancery or diwan. There is no record of King Sultan Hossain visiting some village in that region. It seems articles about this person are hoaxes. HeritageGuardian (talk) 16:17, 29 May 2024 (UTC) — HeritageGuardian (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * The Azerbaijani-language version has nothing to do with the English Wikipedia. Aintabli (talk) 17:03, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 20:51, 3 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Keep - WP:AFDISNOTCLEANUP, clearly meets WP:GNG per, which is already cited in the article. Psychastes (talk) 18:33, 28 May 2024 (UTC)
 * I was unable to read this citation. I see that it was published in 2001. What kind of document or any evidence it has? thx HeritageGuardian (talk) 20:52, 28 May 2024 (UTC) — HeritageGuardian (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * I found the citation 6 at https://ia801605.us.archive.org/26/items/huseyn-ismayilov-miskin-abdal-2001/H%C3%BCseyn%20%C4%B0smay%C4%B1lov%20-%20Miskin%20Abdal%20%20-%202001.pdf. It is the same as citation 5 in previous log. There is no references to any documents. HeritageGuardian (talk) 05:24, 29 May 2024 (UTC) — HeritageGuardian (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 * Delete - references to this article do not cite any documents that could support claims made in it. All of them are opinions of their authors.HeritageGuardian (talk) 21:05, 28 May 2024 (UTC) — HeritageGuardian (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * Delete per WP:RS and WP:HOAX
 * I have investigated this article in depth and found out that this is a hoax for the following reasons.
 * 1. All citation for this article do not reference any well known Safavid literature, although in its first paragraph, it is stated that "many years was in charge of foreign affairs of the Safavid state under Shah Ismail Khatai (1487–1524)." Names of all persons who were in charge of foreign affairs during Shah Ismail are well known. None of them was an ashugh or had nickname Miskin Abdal or was from nowadays territory of Armenia as stated in this article
 * 2. At page 38 of the first citation "https://www.academia.edu/40616613" there is a picture supposedly of an order given to M. Abdal by Safavid King Ismail. However, it is fake. Because non of the Safavids Kings had that kind of large seal and usually Safavid orders have seal at the top of the text but not at the bottom. Also, kings' orders were not given to anybody, but kept in chancery.
 * 3. In the first paragraph of this article it is stated "He was the founder of the ashugh school" and again referred to this book "https://www.academia.edu/40616613, where there is no references proving this statement.
 * 4. The second paragraph states "One of the brightest figures in the history of Azerbaijan, he played an important role in the development of science and art." and refers to a book, where I did not find any proof to this statement. Only statement by its author.
 * 5. The third paragraph states "Under the name of Miskin, Abdal (Architect of the soul) was the creator of the literature of Azerbaijani minstrels - ashugh folk singers." to which there is no reference.
 * 6. The fourth paragraph states "After many years of service at the court of Shah Ismail I Khatai, in 1524 he returned home. He opened the first school in Sariyagub ... " and refers to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miskin_Abdal#cite_ref-3 However, the referred content does not have anything related to the above statement. So, the fourth paragraph is a completely false statement.
 * 7. The rest of the article until the last sentence does not have any citations, so I accepted it as statement of users who created this article. Btw those users were identified as sockpuppets
 * Due to the above reasons, I recommend this article be deleted immediately. HeritageGuardian (talk) 05:01, 4 June 2024 (UTC) — HeritageGuardian (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, signed,Rosguill talk 13:44, 11 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Delete, mostly per WP:INUNIVERSE and WP:V and WP:TNT. Searching his name on Google Scholar finds sources whose reliability I cannot evaluate stating that there was a sufi by this name at about this time period. For anything beyond that I get the impression that much is folklore (specifically, the epic "Miskin Abdal and Senuber" briefly mentioned in our article). Our article itself reads like it was transcribed from that epic, or maybe from a children's history book based on it. We need to clearly distinguish fact from folklore here, but we cannot do it with the current basis. —David Eppstein (talk) 17:57, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @David Eppstein Miskin Abdal was definitely not a fictional character. TNT feels really off here as I have pointed out given the problem is unsourced content, which I have removed now (thus not so difficult to solve). And the rest is easily solvable as the content is not much. Verifiability cannot be a reason for deletion alone, unless it is TNT. The results from Google Scholar are mostly academic journals. If the concern is their reliability, we would be better off assessing each one (44 results with one spelling) instead of making general statements. There is also a plethora of other sources that can be found on Google Books as well as those I have additionally linked above. Respectfully, I find this vote misguided since most sources are not in English, plus we most likely have a WP:SPA above (please check their edit history), who has gone so far to claim this is a hoax despite obvious WP:SIGCOV. Aintabli (talk) 18:19, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * When you say "Miskin Abdal was definitely not a fictional character" it is difficult to determine whether you mean that (1) someone by that name existed, (2) nobody ever wrote any fiction about him, or (3) the content of our article is not based on fiction. Those are different things and we need to distinguish them clearly. If there is verifiable and reliable content about the factual details of his life, that needs to be sourced. If our article is entirely based on an epic, it should be about the epic, not the character in it. So far the best evidence we have is a Google Books link that tells us the title of a book, which doesn't help resolve these questions. —David Eppstein (talk) 18:48, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * @David Eppstein, I mean that someone by that name existed. Those are not the only sources, and Google Books has limited preview. See this for example, which is his entry in a biographical dictionary published by a university in Turkey. This is just an example of the variety of sources available about his life and not just his works. Aintabli (talk) 18:56, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * Here are two more sources "solely" about him: paper from an academic journal and a book At this point, there are at least 5 publications shared here that delve into the details of his life and numerous other that are partially about him. As I have underlined, taking Miskin Abdal as a fictional character would be a huge misunderstanding, which you appear to have partially based your vote on. TNT leaves an open door to recreation, and as far as I know, is meant to be for incurable articles that would be timesinks to edit. A merely 50-100 word article does not fit into that description. Aintabli (talk) 22:43, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
 * The first citation you gave simply repeats statements made in book by İsmayılov Hüseyn,  which I have already investigated and found out that it does not have any reliable references.
 * The second citation you gave, a  paper from academic journal, references some newspaper articles. A newspaper article does not provide a reliable source. It is expected that a scientific journal gives a reference to original documents.
 * The last book you cited basically repeats content of the first book from the citations of this article. On page 43 a picture of a Safavid king order is presented, which is fake. Because none of the Safavid Kings had that kind of large seal and usually Safavid orders have seal at the top of the text but not at the bottom.
 * Moreover, I did not find any reliable information about epic "Miskin Abdal and Senuber" that was mentioned in this article and in book by İsmayılov, Hüseyn. This looks suspicious because an epic was mentioned only in 2001. This is too late for an epic. It could be invented as a part of this hoax.
 * I noticed that you removed much of the text and left the first paragraph intact, where a statement is made "... statesman, who for many years was in charge of foreign affairs of the Safavid state under Shah Ismail Khatai (1487–1524). He was the founder of the ashugh school" This statement is false. I have already commented on it. Will repeat again. Names of all persons who were in charge of foreign affairs during Shah Ismail are well known. None of them had nickname Miskin Abdal or founded an ashugh school.
 * Overall, the more I investigated this article, the more I get convinced that a group of people tried to publish the same or similar content in various news articles and books, to create impression about existence of a known person. HeritageGuardian (talk) 05:07, 11 June 2024 (UTC) — HeritageGuardian (talk&#32;• contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
 *  Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.