Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Miss Grand Romania


 * The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review).  No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Superficial referenciness evaporates under any kind of scrutiny. Guy (Help!) 15:18, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Miss Grand Romania

 * – ( View AfD View log  Stats )

Nearly unknown local version that fails WP:GNG The Banner talk 11:20, 18 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Romania-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:09, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Events-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 14:09, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Note: This debate has been included in the list of Organizations-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 22:29, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

 Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Esquivalience t 01:07, 25 May 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep it's a national competition, and has significant coverage. See here], here, here, here, here.... Kraxler (talk) 18:21, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * All of them about the contestants, none about the pageant itself. The Banner talk 21:26, 29 May 2015 (UTC)
 * The contestants are inseparable from the contest. You can't talk about the Olympics without mentioning the athletes. Kraxler (talk) 01:44, 30 May 2015 (UTC)
 * No, they are not. It is the pageant itself that needs the sources. The Banner talk 10:32, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * , instead of continually creating individual AfDs (that go nowhere) for all these pageants you feel are not notable, I think you should approach WikiProject Beauty Pageants and discuss your concern there. Pageant people should know which are the most significant and notable pageants, and what the best course of action should be. —Мандичка YO 😜 13:01, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * You are funny with that proposal. You know that they would never agree...
 * But in the mean time, I am still missing reliable, independent sources conform WP:RS. The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 17:41, 1 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Your concerns/campaign to keep non-notable pageants is cute, but in the long run it will fail. Just like Miss Grand Cambodia, that was removed after a normal procedure. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 19:21, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I have no "campaign" and no particular interest in beauty pageants. Based on your reaction, it seems like you're the one with the campaign to delete as many beauty pageants and beauty pageant people as you can. How sad. —Мандичка YO 😜 19:42, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The only campaign I have joined is the quest to keep Wikipedia free from advertising and promotion... <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 10:42, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

<div class="xfd_relist" style="border-top: 1px solid #AAA; border-bottom: 1px solid #AAA; padding: 0px 25px;"> Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Davewild (talk) 06:56, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Keep per Kraxler —Мандичка YO 😜 08:53, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete: Again, if this were an article even making an attempt to establish itself, it would discuss its licensure, its sponsors, and its reactions. As it is, this is a pageant not affiliated with Miss Universe or Miss ___. It is two years old. There are no reliable sources discussing the notability of the pageant, and we still don't know who "Grand" is that is creating the pageants. Put beautiful women on a stage, and tabloids and newspapers will take pictures, so that's not going to be sufficient. Hithladaeus (talk) 19:52, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * The Miss Grand International franchise was founded in 2013 by Nawat Itsaragrisil. Lots of sources and info there, in Thai language. Kraxler (talk) 23:37, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I hope this isn't typical for your contributions at AfD, because when I checked the "lots of sources and info" in that article I found four dead links (i.e. failing WP:V), a link to a blog (i.e. not WP:RS), a link to Miss Grand International's own web site, a link to Globalbeauties (a blog-like website in Brazil that IMHO isn't independent of the subject and thus is of little value as a source), and a single WP:RS source, an interview with him that had no connection whatsoever to Miss Grand International, and is of no use in any other article than Nawat Itsaragrisil. Meaning that there's no way you could have checked the links before posting your claim here about there being lots of sources about Miss Grand International. While I !voted delete because I, obviously unlike you, check all links before making up my mind. Thomas.W talk 17:11, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I'm afraid you're mixing up things again, Thomas. I just answered Hithladaeus's question about who created the pageants. The sources at that article (which was not nominated for deletion) supported (at the time, although now dead) the info given there, after all we should AGF. Those dead links in Thai language have no bearing on Miss Grand Romania, you better check out what the five links I posted here above say about the event, aside from what they say about the candidates. And by the way, Global Beauties is an independent news outlet that reports on beauty pageants, and has editorial oversight, it's clearly an RS, it's not some blog or some user-created stuff. You better check first, instead of speculating about the nature of the source. Concerning AfD participation, you could check out with the AfD tool, instead of making disparaging remarks, my own stats say 92% green, your's are 70%. The statistics say you need to improve a little bit to reach my level of understanding of the deletion guidelines. Kraxler (talk) 17:42, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * That tool is of no value whatsoever, if I jumped in late in hundreds of AfDs, when they were already decided, I could easily get my percentage to close to a 100. It also has nothing to do with understanding of deletion guidelines, such understanding is shown in the comments that accompany the !votes, and in the work that is done before !voting, not in a percentage in that tool. You also forgot to mention that the Afd tool showed that I took part in 97 AfD-discussions and cast a discernible !vote in 93 of them (96%), while you took part in 108 Afd-discussions but only cast a discernible !vote in 48 of them (44%). So what did you do in the rest of them? Thomas.W talk 17:58, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * In some cases, I mediated the discussion to come to a result that is fair to the subject and is borne out by policy and guidelines. I relisted other discussions, and closed a few. And thanks for accusing me to stack my AfD votes. You could have taken a look at the discussions, and then opined; or you could have decided that it is not worthwhile, and kept silent. You rather get back to the issue: Miss Grand Romania. No need to argue ad hominem. Kraxler (talk) 19:33, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
 * No, I didn't accuse you of stacking anything, since it's obvious from your measly 48 AfD-!votes (in 108 AfD-discussions you have taken part in) that you hadn't done that, I only told you why the tool (which was brought into the discussion by you, not me) is of no value whatsoever. Thomas.W talk 19:44, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Comment: Thank you. Imagine, though: "Part of the Grand International beauty pageant competition, Miss Grand Romania is a pageant contest for (single?) women, ages -- to --. It has a strong endowment thanks to --- and has contracts for television/radio/press coverage with ---." You get the picture, I hope. Look at Miss Universe. There is a huge difference between an article about the pageant as an object and an article promoting the pageant, and these read like promotions. I don't doubt the good faith of those who feel differently from me. Hithladaeus (talk) 00:31, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Yes, I get the picture. "Poorly written" or "lack of more specific content" are no reasons to delete an article. Certainly it is difficult to ascertain notability if there's not much content, but then the article should be tagged notability, not for deletion. The Banner tagged about a dozen or more beauty pageant-related articles, without bothering to read WP:BEFORE. Many of them were kept in the meanwhile. I'll add more info and sources as soon as possible. Kraxler (talk) 01:14, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I hope that you read WP:RS first instead of adding more related sources. And a bit more AGF would also be nice. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 16:25, 2 June 2015 (UTC)
 * I'd rather you wouldn't lecture on AGF after nominating Articles for deletion/Miss Globe International (2nd nomination), Articles for deletion/Miss Suriname and Articles for deletion/Miss Earth 2015 at none of which a single delete vote was cast. Kraxler (talk) 19:52, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Ah, no more arguments so you get personal. Nice to know. <span style="font-family:'Old English Text MT',serif;color:green">The Banner <i style="color:maroon">talk</i> 20:31, 3 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Well, your AfD stats, The Banner, say 51% green. I suggest you read up more on policy and guidelines before you continue to waste more of the community's time and effort. By the way, this whole navel-gazing was started by Thomas.W when he said here above " I hope this isn't typical for your contributions at AfD...", arguing ad hominem and questioning my qualifications or intentions. I never questioned any !voter's qualifications or intentions at AfD before, but I felt obliged to answer Thomas's question. And I'll now continue to refrain from commenting on the !voters, and shall argue exclusively about the issue at stake. Kraxler (talk) 14:59, 6 June 2015 (UTC)


 * Delete per above - No evidence of notability fails ORG + GNG. – Davey 2010 Talk 20:37, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete. The usual pattern of blogs, forums, dead links and articles that aren't about the beauty pageant but about an individual contestant that we see in all articles relating to Miss Grand International. Thomas.W talk 22:50, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
 * Delete, as being so poorly sourced, and possibly too soon to be notable. If this really were important, it would be in reliable mass media, newspapers, and magazine articles. In the alternative, redirect to Miss Grand International Bearian (talk) 13:09, 9 June 2015 (UTC)
 * There have been only two or editions, that's right. The Miss Grand International franchise was founded in 2013. But the mass media are indeed reporting about it, see here, here and here. Kraxler (talk) 15:11, 9 June 2015 (UTC)


 * The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.